BurnLounge.com Launches Viral Marketing Effort in New York City
I was invited by a friend to New York City’s Coffee Shop Lounge, where about 150 “b” and “c-level” independent music industry executives, djs, artists, performers, songwriters and ancillary music hanger-ons from all walks of the industry gathered to listen to a pitch from New York’s most recent “Music 2.0″ (an acronym describing the post-crash Internet music economy) start-up, BurnLounge.com.
The company launched a multi-level, viral marketing campaign to have designated sponsors (otherwise known as “music moguls” according to their literature) sign-up partner’s interested in hosting a downloadable music store on their own web sites using BurnLounge.com’s music download store package.
A flashy, slickly produced, techno-laden infomercial was shown mid-way through the get together on the bar’s flat-panel tv’s, giving the crowd a generic look at how one can get involved in “making money” (as one of the principals emphasized in a follow-up speech) by selling music downloads as a registered partner in BurnLounge’s affiliate program. From the video, I learned about the three distinct tiers an affiliate partner can sign-up for; the Music Fan, The Affiliate and The Music Mogul.
The first tier, Music Fan, is for the general consumer or music fan who wants to feature tracks of his/her fav artists by embedding links to specific titles from BurnLounge’s catalog on their personal web page. The more tracks sold, the more points earned for redemption on BurnLounge.com’s site for prizes distributed as products or downloads.
The second tier, the Affiliate, is a program that turns downloads into cash. Targeted to small and medium sized web sites, BurnLounge will license their technology (basically a fully-functional download store with complete backend and transaction technology) for a richer user experience. Take this package and share a percentage of your download revenues with BurnLounge.
The third tier, Music Mogul, has a chief sponsor (or “mogul”) signing up a number of other web-based partners to create their own mini-network of sites. The Music Mogul manages those relationships, benefitting by taking a commission of sales of all tracks on his/her own download store as well as a percentage of all transactions within the mini-network of sites he/she is credited with signing into the program.
I admire BurnLounge.com for coming up with a way to spread their brand and using web services to generate sales with this multi-level marketing strategy, however, there are a few kinks in the armor if anyone thinks they’re going to make millions tomorrow from music downloads.
Mom and Pop are up against a formidable array of legacy download providers who currently have a tight strangelhold on the market and benefit from preferential treatment because of their size, traffic and revenue generating capability.
Take into consideration the folowing:
The article reported Napster is stating over $100 Million in cash reserves and 500,000 registered subscribers paying $9.95 a month. Not bad work if you can get it. One web site generates all those subscription fees! And, people said that would “never happen!” Well…it’s happening!
Real Networks claims 1.2 Million subs to its Superpass and Music store subscription service. Today, I cancelled my account because I can’t play Real files on an iPod, and frankly, I’m not interested in listening to radio content from sub-saharan Africa. I guess there are many people who need or want that kind of programming. More power to’em, I say! I love Real. I even own stock in Real, but until interoperability takes place, I’m on the sidelines for now.
The iTunes store, benefitting from Apple’s powerful marketing muscle and convergent digital lifestyle strategy, have to date sold over 500 Million downloads and almost 40 Million iPods. Remember, iPods can only play AAC and MP3 format. Sales of digital media players that play all other formats, including Sony’s A-Trac, Microsoft’s Windows Media and Real Networks Real Media lag far behind.
You cannot purchase songs from Burnlounge, unless they were in .mp3 format, to play on an iPod. It’s common knowledge that Apple will not license their proprietary AAC encoding format to other companies as they protect their idea by maintaining their market share and dominance. This single fact slices your potential download market in half or even more! No one at the event said anything about that. All they said is, “you can make money too.”
In addition, consider this:
BurnLounge.com license their tracks from LoudEye, a digital distributor. The company charges a (according to the biz dev person I spoke with on the phone two weeks ago) $100,000 upfront payment to help a client launch an online store using their technology with an additional $10,000 a month licensing fee to keep it running and have access to their music database.
The woman I spoke to broke down the commission structure for me. First, the label take is about $0.70 cents per download. Then, LoudEye takes between, I think she said, $0.12 to $0.18 cents a transaction, depending on the deal you broker with them.
So, for arguments sake, let’s say it’s $0.15 cents. BurnLounge.com takes $0.05 cents per transaction when you sign up with them. So, between the labels, LoudEye and BurnLounge.com, the total take before you see any money is a grand total of $0.90 cents. I think there’s even another split of a few cents for the publisher, or something like that, but don’t quote me on it, because I’m not exactly sure. Maybe that comes out of the label slice. I’d have to research it a bit more to be exact.
If you’re an affiliate, you have to share that $0.10 cents with your “mogul,” leaving you with 5 or 6 cents on the dollar. Now, figure in your overhead, web maintenance, employees, marketing costs, etc…
You’re making a few pennies on the dollar. You’ll have to sell hundreds of thousands of downloads to make any kind of real money. After marketing and promotion costs and other costs of doing business, it just doesn’t make fiscal sense to open a BurnLounge store. I’d rather go out and find investors and compete on a level playing field, then give BurnLounge my money and have to work ten times as hard to make ten times less than I could if I were and independent download store owner.
The BurnLounge folk say one of their partners, a Hawaain-based lawyer, made $50,000 dollars in commissions last month. His store consists of hard to find Hawaiian music, as I’ve been told. And, we don’t know what the terms of his deal are. Does he own the actual music? Is the music he’s sold considered major label music or is it niche music that only he has the rights to?
If you’re one of those 140 in the room, you’re competing with everyone else in that same room by having those same million tracks from LoudEye. The only differentiation is how you want your store to be perceived. Content on the home page can be changed to feature music that may interest your target audience, but is that the point?
Oh, one thing I forgot to mention, BurnLounge.com’s start-up fee is $144.00 or so, plus a montly subscription fee of around $12. So you’ve got to sell a lot of downloads to make up that estimatged $360 for the year, before you even can think about turning a profit.
Again, I’m not saying it’s a bad idea. It can work for some people. If you’re a Music Mogul and you sign up 100 sites that are premium brands, and they use the technology effectively and market to their customers, you can stand to make that $50K a month in commissions.
It’s the slackers that will kill you. Sign 100 restaurants and lounges and hope that they upadate their music pages and promotional web sites on a timely basis. Make the sites an integrated experience with the brick and mortar operation and maybe you’ll see some traction, but when it comes to online production, it’s tedious work just like any other data entry job. Why do you think we’re outsourcing all this data entry work to India? Because American’s are too busy consuming to do that themselves.
Now remember, you’re competing against major players in the download world; Apple, Sony, Microsoft, Napster, AOL, Yahoo and maybe someday Google. You’re at a immediate disadvantage because the iPod only play AAC and MP3 formats for audio and .mpg and .mov for video.
Major label content downloaded through BurnLounge is encoded with a DRM using other formats that won’t play on an iPod. I’m sure there’s a crack somwhere, but at the end of the day, it’s all about access and portability, isn’t it?
If you’re sitting at home cracking proprietary files, that’s less time you have for the beach, running, work or doing whatever it is you love to do. There’s a reason why million’s have downloaded from the iTunes store–it’s called convenience.
Being a pioneer in the Internet music space, many of my friends from the dance music industry who were at the event asked me what I thought about the program. I told them out of the 150 or so people who showed last night, only 2 (besides the BurnLounge principals on hand) will make any real money. Everyone else will decide that it’s too hard and that no one told them they had to invest so much time, money, energy and passion into something that gave them pennies as a return on their investment.
As for Netmix, would I open open a store? Well, for me it would only be a value-add to my constantly evolving business plan to drive traffic. Kind of a loss leader, like Walmart selling DVD players for $25 and CD’s for $10.
I’m not going to start my own music store, so sure, I’d partner up with BurnLounge to see what happens. It’s a write-off for me if I don’t make my $360 back and maybe I can sell some of the tracks I feature in my mix-shows, who knows?
Do I plan on making money with it? Well, from the looks of the rev/share split, I’ll be on social security by the time I get my first real check. I mean, even though you see all these Google adsense ads on my site, not many people are clicking on them and I’m not really sure why. They’re not as relevant to my content as I’d like them to be, but it’s hard to manage that, unless advertisers came to me directly.
You’d think with about 30 to 50 visitors a day to this blog, I’d be making some money with Adsense and the Amazon program, but I’m not making anything that makes a difference…not yet anyway.
I tell people all the time. The Internet is not the holy grail. You still have to know and understand your customer, provide value and excellent service. That takes time, energy, commitment and possibly an investment of capital. It is what you put into it. I don’t post enough to get a mass audience and it’s slow going. In order to make any real money on the web, you gotta hustle. Just like everything else. Get rich quick schemes only make the ones who think of them rich, and everyone else is used for their brainpower and hard work.
Remember what they say, “if it seems to good to be true, it probably is.” But then again, they also say, “if you can’t beat’em, join’em!” Take your pick!
Here’s my Google ad below…I guess I’m joining them…lol.
Netmix founder, Tony Zeoli is an accomplished DJ and currently works in Product Development and User Experience Design for Zaah Technologies in Farmingdale, NY. Netmix founder, Tony Zeoli, is an avid blogger and DJ. His day job is in Product Development and User Experience Design for Zaah Technologies. In his spare time, he likes to work on electronic dance music, play basketball and develop his digital photography skills. Once in a while, he indugles in a peanut butter and fluff sandwich with an ice cold glass of low-fat milk.
January 26th, 2006 at 1:00 am
There are some who took my writing about “b” and “c” level executives to heart and called me on it to say they thought my descriptive text was overboard and insulting.
My intention was to write a paragraph about the fact that I ran into industry heads who are doing good work in the industry, but aren’t the top executives. It was my goal to be descriptive about the attendance, so my readers could get a feel for who was there and who wasn’t and what that really means.
And they could take away from that, that there were a lot of good people there, but they weren’t necessarily the movers and shakers in the digital music world. They were all there to find out how they could get involved in the digital music revolution, which is great!
I was told that there were regrets for extending the invitation to me and that I probably won’t be asked to attend any more events, which I think is really sad, but that’s their right to do so. I just think that’s so short sighted in the scheme of things, but then again, they think I’m short sighted for writing the word ‘b-list.”
What’s funny is, no one is using this comments section to complain here on the blog itself. They’d rather call me and ask me to retract than get involved in posting a rebuttal, which is what blogs are all about, no?
Not everyone is going to agree with what I write. This isn’t the New York Times, it’s a blog about dance music, dj culture and the Internet, among other related topics. I’m not a PhD and I don’t claim to be the world’s best writer. If I thought I were offending anyone, then I would have written that sentence another way.
But I didn’t, so I’m not going to change what I wrote, because that’s what I saw. And for goodness sake…I was there! That makes me a “b-list” executive and I’m damn proud of it. I hope to aspire one day to be “a-list,” but now I’ve been told that because I wrote that, people won’t help me get there.
How petty is that? I think there are more important things in life to be concerned with than two words I said in a blog that people will forget tomorrow. Get over it.
January 26th, 2006 at 12:12 pm
Hey Tony-
My name is Hazel B. Zoleta VP Promo and A&R of Tommy Boy . Well that’s great you included yourself as a B or C LOL. I guess I am included too in your B and C category of Executives which is cool to me because that’s only your opinion since I did feel like I did contribute a lot to the scene with my ventures back in the day with DJ International (founding label of house),SOS RECORDS (Short Dick Man, Lick It, and discovered Maxamillion which still plays all over the radio until today and was the only INDIE LABEL START-UP that had 6 records on the BILLBOARD HOT 100)Profile Records (grand daddy of RAP),V2 (where I got to promote and break Moby and Angel Moon) and now Tommy Boy Records (where I am proud to say I discovered and BROKE ROC PROJECT “NEVER”). On top of that I founded my own MANAGEMENT and Marketing Company called On Cue Management where my partner and I basically have my producers and rap acts going to all 4 Majors,Great independents, and people like Lou Pearlman plus we were responsible for the Christina Milian “DIP IT LOW” Remix you hear on KTU. I know I am not Monte Lipman,Eddie O, Jay Z, but I have a great relationship with all of them where if I needed them all I have to do is pick the phone up, can you do that? Is that a B and C thing? I talk to Label and Radio Heads all the time that are involved with this… Joey Carvello at TVT,Vic Latino at KTU, Riddler KTU,EMAN at POWER 106 in LA, Jazzy Jim, Tony the Tiger from POWER 96 in Miami and Eddie Mix are very loyal BurnLounge people…I think they don’t like that B and C thing you said because they can easily get on the MIC and say NETMIX DOT COM Who? But then again !I don’t think they even know who you are either LOL and won’t waste their time like I am right now. On that note I have NO CLUE WHO YOU ARE AS until someone on my team told me to look at this article and was very upset. One thing I don’t like is an upset team member. Anyhow I got that out of my system. I think you thought this was the Grammy’s so if you wanted to SEE MEGA STARS turn on MTV this event is on how to become a Digital Download Retailer through Grass roots marketing. The way you make the money is FIRST sell the FRANCHISE then SELL the MUSIC. BurnLounge has 10,000 franchises sold and AVERAGING 250 a day. We are the world’s largest Digital Retailer. Did you know Subway first made money selling the franchises then made money on the sandwiches. We are still in BETA STAGE…BETA… and trust me now we’re on our 3rd RAISE in investment the site will be upgraded to compete. It’s an opportunity for people to help market NEW MUSIC as well as sell the 4 Majors catalog. Beatport helped build this site which is the LARGEST Indie Internet retailer and BurnLounge is acquiring their catalog for the BurnLounge Retailers to use. Are you calling everyone at Beatport B and C too….LOL…okay okay I’ll stop. Just messin’ with you Tony. I know you tried to defend yourself afterwards but I had to answer you too man. Because I do believe in this and so does my team…and we just did all this on grass roots. The party was more for Q&A’s since JT the head of marketing was in town. It was informal…it was not GRAMMY MATERIAL RED CARPET LOL. I am happy that people got to meet JT and at least get any unanswered questions answered. It’s about makin’money and having fun again. I can BE A “B” but I like the “C” cuz the “C” to me means CHECK! On that note…it was informal event…Richie Rich, Jelly Bean, and I had only literally a day and a half to plan it.
Yo for the 10 people who read this! Go to my site!
http://www.burnlounge.com/OnQMGT
Peace Out Tony What’s Your name! JK! I think?
PS Few people from my BurnLounge team is coming with me to the Power 96 concert and they can come to the MIAMI Burn Party to hang with Sean Paul,LUDA,Pitbull,Trina,etc. Wanna Come? Psyche! JK Tony! You know a punch for punch…
January 26th, 2006 at 4:03 pm
Hazel,
I’m a bit puzzled as to why anyone would get upset about this, in light of the fact that there are more important things in the world to discuss and deeper problems to address.
I do appreciate your comments and they are always welcome in this forum. If you’re personally offended by a word in a blog that describes a scene so other people can understand what was taking place, then I don’t know what to say. Your perception is your reality. If you felt I was talking about you, then that is only real for you. And you have every right to dispute that, which you did, and I thank your for doing so.
Good luck with your work. Sounds like you have some great things going on!
Tony
January 26th, 2006 at 4:15 pm
By the way, I have to respond to your point about franchising. BurnLounge isn’t selling a franchise, what they are doing is very different. It’s MLM, short for MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING. I did the numbers based on what I’ve been told so far, and you have to sell around 14,400 tracks to make up the approximately $360 you’ll spend per year as an affiliate rep. Even more if you figure in the cost of marketing, promotion and overhead.
I’m so glad you’re so passionate about this, but to me, it’s a loss leader for my site and if I get involved with it, I’m sure I won’t see any real revenues for year’s to come. Because I’ll have to sign up with a sponsor, who is signed with a sponsor, who is signed with a Music Mogul, who is signed with BurnLounge. So, I’m four parts removed from BurnLounge…and what’s the split for me…not even pennies! It’s half pennies!
The further you are from the top, the harder you work to make less of a share of the pie…that is NOT A FRANCHISE…that is a PYRAMID system which does not leave an equal slice of the pie for everyone. You love it because you get a cut of everyone you sign up, but as you start signing up more and more, the cut gets smaller and smaller. If you sign up ten people, and they sign up ten people, and they sign up ten more people, everyone is taking a little more of your pie for the effort, but then again, you’re at the top so it’s less work you have to do. But what happens if BurnLounge falters? You’ve built your whole business on the backs of someone else’s system, and then you’re out all that time, energy and money (if you put any in yourself; you’re overhead), instead of going out and opening your own download store and taking a larger slice of the pie for your efforts.
A FRANCHISE is an entity where you pay a certain amount of money to have YOUR OWN Starbucks, McDonalds or Subway. The parent company supports you with products you can sell, but you only have to split the revenue with the parent, and that’s the difference. YOu don’t have to split it ten ways to Sunday. The more you sell, the more you make. Sure, the more your partners partners sell, the more you make, but the revenue is diluted so much that the pennies that are coming in don’t justify the effort.
I could see if you were selling something like jeans. The markup on jeans is fairly high, so the splits are in the dollars, not in the pennies. If you make a dollar a pair, sell 10,000 pairs and make 10,000 dollars. With Burnlounge, you have to sell 200,000 tracks with your share being about $.05 cents a track to make $10,000. The rest goes to the label, your sponsor and BurnLounge. To sell 200,000 tracks, you’re going to have to invest in marketing and advertising, which means that if you spend $10,000 of your hard earned money, you’ve MUST GET 200,000 people to buy a song, or a variatioin thereof.
Are you ready to do that? Can you get 200,000 people to buy from you? That’s a lot of people. It took me 5 years to get 1 Million unique visitors to visit Netmix every 365 days. And they weren’t buying anything. If I sold stuff, the law of averages says only about 10% of that 1 million would have even considered a transaction.
So, my opinion is that for you to compare BurnLounge’s multi-level marketing strategy to Subway is simply irresponsible and untrue. And if you go around telling people that it is, then you are spreading false information.
I don’t think I can buy a Subway franchise from a franchiser, but I can buy a franchise from Subway corporate just like everyone else has the right to do. And then we all compete on a level playing field. We all put in the same investment, and we all get the same return.
In BurnLounge’s case, I get less of a return the further away from the top I am…and that’s a major problem for me and it should be for you and anyone else you know that signs up three or four tiers below the top. Because you have to work longer, harder and invest more money than those that came before you to earn what they are earning on the backs of all your hard work.
There are studies, and it’s been proven, that the further you get from the top…the harder it is to make money. That’s a fact.
Check out http://www.mlmwatch.org/ for more real facts on the downside of MLM.
You want to read about the problem with MLM or Network Marketing…here’s an article on About.com that should give you a reality check;
http://entrepreneurs.about.com/cs/multilevelmktg/a/problemwithmlm.htm
Let’s see where you are with this a year from now…
Tony Z.
February 16th, 2006 at 3:18 pm
Tony, I ran across your article after being hit from everying and their brother about joining up with Burnlounge. Thinking it was too good to be true, and I wasn’t about to make $35,000 within months of becoming some kind of mogul, I did as much research as possible on Burnlounge. I’ve always been of the opinion that if it sounds too good to be true, it usually is.
I loved the article, but wondered if you would correct your spelling in the 4th para….their are a few kinks should be there are a few kinks. I’m not an ass, and only mention this because it sort of takes the wind out of the article somewhat and that’s a shame since it’s a really good overview of MLM.
I’ve always thought that the group was way too involved in creating the tiers and recruiting than they are with the product, and that worries me since, after all, aren’t they supposed to selling a product?
Anyway, thanks for the article. Hopefully I won’t have to say I told you so many times to everyone who’s investing believing they’re going to get rich quick.
February 16th, 2006 at 4:53 pm
Thanks Jami,
Sorry for the dreadful English. I’m always full of ideas but there’s no one to check my work, so I don’t mind when readers ask me to correct a spelling error here or there. I need to be more dilligent when it comes to these things.
Despite my errors, I’m certainly glad you got something out of this post. To tell you the truth, this has caused quite a controversy amongst me and my industry friends. They were a little dismayed at the length I went to shine the spotlight on this situation, because I kind of rained on their parade. But that’s what a blogger is supposed to do, call it how he or she sees it.
Tony
February 28th, 2006 at 2:34 pm
Burnlounge = Ponzi Scheme?…
For those not up to speed on this, Burnlounge is a network marketing (read: multi-level marketing) online music store, similar to iTunes…except that iTunes actually works. Somebody first approached me about getting involved in this company in Novembe…
February 28th, 2006 at 2:39 pm
Tony,
Has a similar experience in Nashville a few weeks ago.
http://www.indiemusician.com/music_business/2006/02/burnlounge_ponz.html has more thoughts.
What the guys there told me able BL was totally different than what you’ve found out, so thanks for clarifying things.
The only people I’ve seen who LIKE this company are on the payroll.
March 22nd, 2006 at 1:56 pm
Tony,
Nice breakdown of the business model.
-Mike
March 26th, 2006 at 7:27 pm
Hey Tony,
We have a forum for discussion of the burnlounge retail program set up at http://burnlounge.proboards92.com/index.cgi if you are interested in sharing it.
Thanks,
IG
March 27th, 2006 at 7:09 pm
Hi Tony,
Interesting stuff and overall not a bad overview of MLM’s. First time I have ever sent a blog, but felt a major topic was missing here. I have never been a MLM fan probably because they all have one thing in common – I always seem like a target for something I have no interest in. But this seems different. People are going to have specific reasons for getting involved with this business. I did not hear much talk here about one of the major goals of BurnLounge – to get independent artists music heard and distributed. As a flamenco guitarist who has been working on an album project for a few years, I did not see much point in finishing the project since I am not signed by a label. My chances of selling my box of 1,000 cd’s is slight unless I do the concert tour thing. Well, I can tell you that when I heard that burnlounge takes independent artists music and makes it available on their library and you can even feature it on your own store, I immediately started where I left off with the album and hope to have it completed within a few months. How much did you say the label takes – 70 cents per download? I have heard that artists are making as much as 60 cents per song (if you know the exact number – please correct me – but I think it varies from artist to artist). The point is that I believe that artists all over the world will embrace this and their fans will buy their music where the artist tells them to? Not convinced, go to http://www.tednugent.com. As far as downloads, very few of my customers even know how to download, and they ask me to help them or do it for them. It is just the beginning of downloading, not oversaturated. I also disagree about the MLM thing. The the local subway owner in my town is a friend of mine. Subway offered him the choice to either buy another franchise or recruit and train another owner and make a cut of those stores. Hmmm Pyramid… I don’t think so. Honestly don’t know enough about MLM’s to make the decision… Franchise or Pyramid. But I refuse to get caught up in it. Our team will focus on musicians and downloads – not on selling friends on becoming a mogul. The beauty of this model is that you can sell it however you like. If you like multi level marketing…go for it. If you are interested in clearing the playing field so that musicians can afford to make and market their music then pursue that. https://www.burnlounge.com/BurnLoungeMusicStores
March 30th, 2006 at 2:05 am
I was going to get my band on there. But know I really don’t know… I just really need to find a place where I can sell single songs easily. Easy for me and easy for fans. Myspace should workout something with i-POD. They’d kick azz!. ~Bob~
March 31st, 2006 at 11:42 am
Excellent review!
I wish you were on myspace, so I could add you in and get updates when you post them.
Yes. I took the plunge as a music mogul w. university (the $444.90 package) and my team is completely focused on building our teams of music moguls.
I understand your focus on the retailing aspect, and I’m surprised you hadn’t noted that the Burlounge retail site interface leaves much to be desired, BUT.. as others have noted, the site is still in final stages of Beta.
YES, if you setup one store, and you then said “I will now fight against multinational, extremely well funded music download sites such as Walmart.com, Rhapsody, iTunes, Yahoo! Music” et all, then I would say that was a foolhardy ambition.
The reason why I feel that we are all so focused on signing Moguls, is because, yes the return on our initial investment is faster (we can cycle out w. the points we’ve earned to earn cash faster) BUT we are focused on building a distribution network as deep and wide as possible, so when this puppy breaks out from its quasi underground status, our retailers and distribution network will be out, up on the web, and available to take orders. The way I see it is this, iTunes, Rhapsody (love that you can listen to full songs first by the way Burnlounge app dev team, hint, hint!) are one site, utilizing millions of dollars in advertising to get the word out. Burnlounge took the tactic of direct & personal relationships and then spending the money they would have blown on mass media advertsing to pay the folks who are building their distribution network.
I consider it, not just one site, iTunes, Rhapsody, etc.. but Burnlounge is now millions of sites, saturating the search engines when folks are looking or a particular artist or style of music, for which to download.
A retailer will NOT make money, following the tactic you described, so the scenario you played out was self fulfilling prophecy. The only way to “make it” is to build a distribution network, sites of sites if you will, to catch a couple of fish @ each site, but to gain benefit of multiple sites catching those few fish w. the money flowing back six levels. THAT is the key to Burnlounge w. respect to ROI.
Burnlounge will be a host of different things to different people. Some will sign up at the base levels, because they like the idea of being able to retail digital content. It may be a nice additional revenue stream to their exisiting businesses, etc. Others will see it as strictly a “headhunters r us” type scenario, where they are focused on ROI and building a distribution network in order to catch the tidalwave that is coming w. respect to music downloads. Whatever your take on it, there will be the vast majority who will sign, and not do anything, that is the same in any industry.
With respect to your banging on MLM.. Yes, I’ve seen some pretty shitty things out there in the marketplace, just the same as ANY industry. For every successful multibillion dollar business like Mary Kay, Amway, Excel (now defunct due to the mobile industry by the way) there are a slew of failed ventures. All I can say to that is, as in life, business is alot about calculated risks. I may, or may not make back my initial investment. I DO know that I have a strong social network across the country to introduce this to, I just have to get my ultimate warm and fuzzy about it, before showing them (and through this discussion, and your blog, and the forums I’ve been lurking on, I’m doing that). To me, its more about my personal integrity being protected, and not abused. My day job (I’m a partner in an IT support company) easily takes care of my daily bread and needs. With Burnlounge, I’m focused on playing w. the technology & business model to see if it has any lasting merit. The initial investment, yes, to some people, its hefty. To me, I see it as a way to start potentially lucrative new revenue streams, because as you know, it’s all about the multiple streams of income and recurring revenue.
Hopefully I can subscribe to your blog, and get email updates. My desktop is full of so many icons as it is! LOL.
Peace.
March 31st, 2006 at 7:22 pm
Hey burnlouger:
Thanks for the post. My two biggest concerns about Burnlounge are:
A. The rev/share as you drill down from Mogul to Affiliate. The split is pennies on any major label product which is distribued through Burnlounge by Loudeye. In order to make any real money, you have to sell hundreds of thousands of tracks. What about your marketing costs to earn customers? You will have to sell thousands of downloads to make up for the money to earn one customer.
B. Apple owns and estimated 70% of the music download market. You can’t play DRM’d Burnlounge major label tracks from Loudeye on an iPod. Simple equation. You can’t sell to 70% of the market, then why try and compete with the Napsters and Rhapsodys of the world. Without a marketing budget, you’ll get no where.
Those are my main points. For the artist who needs a download store for his her own web site, that’s a different story. Sure, use the Burnlounge technology, but when their MLM implodes, you lose your store and your revenues.
I say, build it youself and they will come. Keep all the money!
Tony Z.
March 31st, 2006 at 10:47 pm
Just got hit with a Burnlounge offer…sounds very much in line with a pyramid/ponzi scheme, but the ability to focus on indie music does offer an outside revenue alternative that ponzi/pyramid’s do not.
The problem seems to be the intentions of Burnlounge. By signing with Loudeye, they are showing a desire to be in the corporate pop music game, which puts them in direct competiton with Apple and Napster. By focusing on indie/niche labels, they have an open market to tap into, but not the broad appeal of corproate pop music.
I don’t see how they can be both at the same time. People like “Hazel” are not in this for indie blood and sweat because the returns will not be as great due to having a niche audience. You’re then left to depend on the marketing of indie bands, which has been tried before by old-school sites like mp3.com pre-buyout.
In the end I’d say it has a chance, but not at the level of business they are reaching for which is apparent with all the “investment rounds” F’d Company jargon. After this thing crashes and all the quick change artists are gone, I could someone using it for succesful guerilla tactics.
March 31st, 2006 at 11:12 pm
Tony,
Your opinion makes for some good conversation to help flesh out misunderstandings about Burnlounge.
I think folks like yourself should be embracing Burnlounge, not picking it apart. An MLM that can help promote LEGAL music downloads is not bad for the industry. “Burnlounger” makes a great point; you won’t get rich with your own store. I think the overall strategy of Burnlounge (from a corp. perspective) is amazingly sound. You can’t take on iTunes by trying to out-advertise them. Noone has been able to make dent in Apple’s share of the pie by throwing up a website and hoping people will come. The viral nature of MLM will make Burnlounge a serious competitor.
Who cares if Apple owns 70% of the market? Does that mean that we should all just throw our hands up and resign ourselves to using iPods the rest of our lives? There is still a HUGE market that doesn’t even own an iPod, and quite a few other manufacturers who are vying for the hardware market. I just don’t believe your argument holds water, but that’s just my opinion.
I value your thoughts on Burnlounge, but I’d encourage you to dig further into the program/concept. It’s not deserving of a witch hunt.
April 1st, 2006 at 1:58 am
To address what Mark said above, I completely agree. Correct me if I’m wrong, but what I understand Burnlounge does, is to get hundreds of people to host Burnlounge stores on their web sites, which means they begin to compete with each other for the nascent share of the download market that buy DRM’d files that play on non-iPod devices.
Although that market it growing, it’s minimal at best as Apple has a stranglehold on the so far. I’m not saying that’s right. I’m just stating it as a fact.
I’m not here to argue whether or not Apple should have as much of a share as the do. What I’m hear to argue is that Burnlounge’s business model is built on a deck of cards that can fold at any minute. The people who think they are going to become millionaires overnight by selling downloads using Burnlounge technology realize that their little slice of the pie on each major label download is so small, and has to be split so many ways– between moguls and whoever signs each other up–at the end of the day; how are you going to make back your intitial investment against what you put into it in time, money and resources?
BTW, Sony pulled their Bean from the market due to lack of interest and there are few players out there that have generated any enthusiasm from the consumer marketplace so far. Few, not none.
If you operate your Burnlounge store as an online download store only and sell major label music through via distribution partner, Loudeye, you have to compete both with the majors, the indy’s (Emusic, MP3.com) AND you’re other Burnlounger’s. If you have 50,000 Burnlounge reps, the law of six degrees of separation states that you’re going to begin to compete for your brother and sister Burnlounger customers. Did you ever think of that?
On the other side, if you are a record label or an artist selling your own music through Burnlounge, the split is different. You take 60 or so cents on the dollar. If you want to split that much with a download partner selling your own MP3’s; why spilt when you can build your own little download shoppoing cart with open source software with a PayPal plug-in and off you go?
Now, there are many people who aren’t technologically savvy, so I understand why you’d want to use Burnlounge, but I’m partial to Musicane myself. They are upfront about what they do, and they’re not showing some slick marketing movie about how you can make millions and join the MP3 revolution with Burnlounge. I think their message is misleading…and that’s my opinion, because it doesn’t give you rev/share facts when you watch the movie.
Mark, to your point again, I don’t think they can be both either. Serve one or the other, but don’t try and compete with the majors because there is NOTHING that differentiates Burnlounge from the estabalished players, who have customer support and partnerships at high levels of the industry.
Will a Burnloung rep give better customer support than Real, Apple or Napster? I think one would be fooling themselves if they though so. I mean, it’s kind of hard to actually get in touch with Burnlounge through their web site. Last I checked, you couldn’t even call them on the phone. I sent an email inquiry two months ago and NEVER heard back from anyone.
Pearsall,
I have to pick Burnlounge apart piece by piece. You know why? It’s my responsibility as a good citizen of this democratic society to speak up to help protect my fellow citizens from something I truly believe is misleading. When I went to the BurnLounge event and they showed that video, it made me sick to my stomach to watch all my dear dance music industry colleageus being pitched something by two guys with absolutely no record industry experience whatsover.
I’m sure you’ll respond with a comment to the effect that anyone should be able to enter the digital music marketplace and compete. And, I would say that you are right. BUT, I would also say that if you entered the marketplace, then you must be A. authentic, B. telling the truth, and C. have a certain level of transparency instead of hiding your details in the fine print.
That night, at no time did the Burnlounge representatives on hand explain the rev/share split to the crowd. At no time did the Burnlouge representatives explain that you had to pay them a fee to use their technology, until AFTER the presentation and only in a one on one setting. When I emailed them, no one responded.
If you think the overall strategy from the corporate perspective is that the Burnlounge model is sound business practice, then I’d say you’d be best served to go take a few business classes at a local college and the professor will tell you differently. I’ve run businesses. It’s not like I’m speaking out of my ass here.
Pearsall, hear me out…I am NOT AGAINST ANY COMPETITION TO APPLE”S MARKET SHARE…what I am against is a company coming into the market and potentially misleading its representatives by not telling them the TRUE cost of doing business.
You do the math like I did in one of my first posts. If you sell Major label music through burnlounge, your commission after the commission taken by Burnlounge and the Mogul and whoever else signed you up can be literlly pennies.
Any business worth its salt has to spend money to drive sales. And if you say you don’t have to spend money, then you have to spend time. And what is the monetary value of your time. No matter how you slice it, if you normally make–let’s say, $25 dollars an hour–and you put in 40 hours a week, you have to sell thousands and thousands of downloads a week just to cover yourself. Then, what about your computer, web connection, marketing campaign (flyers, phone calls, emails) and the list goes on.
Any business person can see that the ROI on housing a Burnlounge store on your web site is a HUGE loss leader. The margins are so low on Major label product that it would be years before you made a profit, especially if you’re competing with 100,000 Burnlounge affiliates.
The download game is a game of billions, not thousands and certainly not hundreds. To play in that world, you have to have a big budget and differentiate yourself from the competition. You tell me, how would your Burnlounge store be ANY different then what I can get out there from Apple, Rhapsody, Napster and Yahoo. And where would I rather shop for music, with brands I know and trust, or with the guy down the street who is here today, gone tomorrow?
Everyone knows that MLM comes and goes. Once you reach the longtail, you’re done. MLM can only go so far before it falls apart. It’s been proven. Look at Excel…gone!
If Burnlounge made it the same for everyone; one affiliate program where everyone is treated equal and takes the same share of the pie as their brother or sister Burnlounger, then I would stop picking Burnlounge apart. Until that day happens, Im on this soap box my man, helping protect you and others from entering into something that I just can’t support.
Tony Z.
April 4th, 2006 at 12:32 pm
I reading these comments about burnlounge and I understand one thing. You just don`t get it. and thats ok. It`s true that Apple has the major share of the download market, It is also tru that Apple controlled the market before Microsoft came on the scene and now look who holds the market. I don`t know what you have gotten out of the Burnlounge information, but I have been in for just over 2 weeks and have already made my money back. I f thats all I earn (unlikely) then I haven`t lost, and it was fun.
For those who say it can`t be done, please stay out of the way of those who are doing it.
Thanks, Joe
April 4th, 2006 at 2:53 pm
Joe,
Glad someone’s making money with it. Maybe I’m wrong, I don’t know, but I’d like for you to prove to me that you’re making money. Who bought what tracks from your store directly over the past two weeks and not the stores of anyone you signed up to the program? How many of those tracks are major label downloads and how many are indy artists you own or either manage or represent? And, how far from the top you are as a burnlounge affiliate? How many levels are below you? How many tracks did you have to sell to make your money back and how are you marketing your service?
Don’t just come here and say your making your money back with no proof. Put your money where your mouth is.
Tony
April 4th, 2006 at 5:47 pm
Hello, I’m Bernadine, cool and interesting blog, Thanks
April 5th, 2006 at 11:39 am
Hi Tony,
You are welcome at any of my events any time. I have been in referral marketing for over a decade and I know that the model will prove itself to you and to the world in time.
BL is not a “get rich quick scheme” and thank God it’s not. There is no such thing as money for nothing or in my experince “chicks for free”. LOL
Here is the reason I contend that BL is a house with a solid foundation and not “built on sand”. Ask your self this question: At the end of the day who is the best person to sell music? A fan! In other words someone who likes it right?
I feel that we have a major compelling advantage over I tunes in that we have the ability and the desire to ingest independent artists content to our stores in roughly 10 days. This was not possible through Loudeye and so BL built it’s own program in house. This will allow us to build the largest catalog of indie artists in the world and this is already happening. Did your presenter mention this? Did they even know about it?
Let’s talk about the artists for a second. I’m not even up to a “C level” in the music business but I have friends who have gotten record deals, thought they were set, only to make a few thousand and have the sales fizzle out.
Burn Lounge is nothing more than a digital street team, The street team marketing model is not on trial as it was proven by Ludicrous and many other artists. However to develop a street team an artists needs product right? Not with BL. They have no production hard costs for CDs, no delivery problems and can in fact market their music at a lower cost. There is NO CHARGE to the artists for this service.
Additionally the artists are not put in a “box” by the labels who only want them to make music that is of a style they know sells. In my opinion this robs the artists of their creative rights to make the music they want, how they want.
Interestingly enough our number 1 sellers have been indie artists who are partnering with their fan base. Is it possible that by partnering with their fans and offering them burn rewards or(if they choose the affiliate or mogul level CASH) they might stop stealing the music? Ask Ted Nugent or read what he has to say at http://burnlounge.com/nugent
I tunes, no matter what you say has backed themselves into a corner with their refusal to allow compatibilty with other devices. Check it out for yourself and you will find that some countries are considering NOT allowing i tunes to market in their respective countries.
Are you old enough to remember BETA tapes (PRE VHS) brought out by 1 MFG who much like Steve Jobs had a short sighted mentality that they THOUGHT would garner them a larger market share. Where is BETA today? Gone! Superceded by a product that allowed other manufactures to produce equipment which played the VHS tape and then the DVD.
Competiton is good for any industry as it drives prices down and makes for a better over all product for the end consumer.
Does Viral marketing work? You tell me: I know for a fact that Sprint started with an MLM company called network 2000, I know for a fact that MCI used friends and family very succesfully to take market share from the former monopoly known as At & T. I know for a fact that Net Zero and Hot mail garnered millions of customers.
There was also a CRAZY high school football coach named Art Williams who wanted to use the concept of friends and family marketing to sell insurance. The insurance industry thought he was nuts yet the next year his Co., A.L. Williams (he put a lot of thought into the name) outsold 3 of the largest insurance companies COMBINED. Today that Co is known as Primerica and all of the companies I mentioned have been a part of some very large mergers, acquistions and IPO’s on wall street.
As for your comments on employees our model does not require or recommend this. I have had a company with employees and every employee equals 1 headache. This is to put it bluntly a better way to make money
As for your comments on the % paid out please allow me to respond with the correct information. First of all you are pretty close to 1 portion of the pay we earn as retailers. You forgot or perhaps your presenter did not know how to explain the other portion.
I have friends here in Dallas who own one of the largest dry cleaning franchises in existence today. They make millions on small transactions. Why? Because they have tons of stores. During their initial growth phase did they make their money on cleaning clothes? No! They made it by selling brick and mortar stores to entrepeuners who wanted to own thier own business.
In much the same manner BL pays the moguls to help them build out the marketplace with digital stores. However, compared to a true Franchise our model is affordable by the masses. We did this to make it easy for millions to participate. Once we have a few million stores we will be out selling I tunes with no problem.
By the way i tunes has sold over 1 billion now, not 500,000. We sold voer 100,000 downloads last month (we are still in BETA phase), we are on pace to sell over 1 million in May and quite frankly I think we will hit 1 billion downloads quicker than I tunes. This will only be possible by enlisting the help of music lovers & entrepenuers in the US today and eventually on the international market.
Speaking of the international market do you think that Japanese nationals here in America would like to have access to their countries music? What about people from Hawaii who love Island music but can’t easily get it here in the mainland? Our model allows us to ingest content from other countries just like we do for indie artists and labels.
I’m sorry that your presenter told you not to come back. In my experience when you have total confidence in what you are doing you need not fear inspections or other opinions.
Typically in MLM the reps are forced to sell a product that is over priced in order to “feed” the comp plan. We are the same price as i tunes.
For years the so called MLM gurus have said that by the 2000’s 50% of all goods and services will be sold via MLM. BS! Not as long as the companies are selling over priced goods.
Fortunately todays technolgy allows Burn Lounge. http://burnlounge.com/gregw to sell our products at the same price as I tunes.
My advice? Get in. You might be glad you did, and as you stated the initial miniscule investment is a write off any way.
Greg ” you might be a networker Warford”
April 5th, 2006 at 1:52 pm
Ok, I’ve asked this question on my discussion site and gotten no answers. Maybe someone here could answer it for me…
On this site http://www.explainburnlounge.com/docs/ConcentricRetail.pdf on page 5 there is a compensation plan listed. I don’t understand it…
I don’t think it will post here, so if you could load it up and check it out, then come back and explain to me how the shared compensation works. I am trying to put together a model that shows what it would take to be profitable with BL based on the following scenario:
You have a BL retail site. You have 6 direct sales teams. Each of them has 3 direct sales teams and that goes all the way down your “downline” to the limit.
You are selling 24 albums a month and each of your downline is selling 24 albums per month.
I cannot tell how much commission you are earning from your downline. Your direct sales pays either $0.50 per album or $2.00 per album, depending on what “shared compensation” means.
Your “direct team” or “ring one” pays either $0.20 per album, or $1.20 per album, again depending on what “shared compensation” means.
I have no idea what rings 3-6 pay.
Does ANYONE who is telling Tony that he “doesn’t get it” understand the compensation plan? And if so, can you clarify it for idiots like me who can’t make sense of it? Thanks,
April 5th, 2006 at 2:55 pm
Hi Greg:
Let me respond to your well thought out and concise comments. I agree with you in some respects, but disagree with you in others.
You said:
{BL is not a “get rich quick scheme” and thank God it’s not. There is no such thing as money for nothing or in my experince “chicks for free”. LOL}
When I was at the Burnlounge event, one of the founders and a major investor where there. The theme I got was that you can “make millions” with burnlounge and that a Burnlounger in Hawaii made some $40 thousand last month on his downloads, but they didn’t break down what kind of music he was selling, nor did they break down what his split was or how far he was from the top.
That being said, I felt I was watching an informerical for guys who wanted you to give them money to have a burnlounge store, but there was little explanation about how they would support that, other than a free montly magazine. And the never discussed territorial protections, such as those of a true franchise.
So, do I think it’s a “get rich quick” scheme? I’m not going to go as far as saying that it is, but they sure acted like you could “make money” with burnlounge, instead of teaching you how to operate an online store with territorial rights in your market and other rules and regulations put in place to help you succeed. As a Burnlounger, you now have to compete with other online stores, besides the thousands of other Burnlounger’s…who, at the end of the day, are your competition, not your friend.
{Here is the reason I contend that BL is a house with a solid foundation and not “built on sand”. Ask your self this question: At the end of the day who is the best person to sell music? A fan! In other words someone who likes it right?}
I totally disagree. Fans are the best people to learn about new music from. But, are they the best people to “sell” music? Absolutely not. I don’t like all the music some music fans express to be the best. Their ear could be just horrible, and I’d rather get my musical info from a trusted source at a record store who deals with a lot of customers, face to face. But that’s for me, not for everyone.
And, let me give you a scenario.
Burnlounge launches and signs up, for arguments sake, 50,000 affiliates. Out of those 50,000, five thousand are moguls. The other 45,000 are two tiers from the top, that means that the moguls and burnlounge share in their revenue.
Now, let’s go down to the next level: an affiliate of an affiliate of a mogul; then burnlounge, and that’s before loudeye and the respective record label.
Say 20,000 of the remaining 45,000 are at that level. There is going to be a huge incosistency between 20,000 people promoting Burnlounge technology and download sales, instead of having consistency across the board on one web site. The value of all the reps may be diluted in certain markets based on performance and consumer backlash; or whatever other situation comes into play. You can lose hundred’s of affiliates overnight and with that hundreds of customers.
It stands to reason that with everything, there is always the BIG PUSH to sign up as many affiliates as one can. But, then you start to hit a wall, because there are only so many people who want to buy-in to the program. And, after those people realize that their investment isn’t paying the huge dividends they thought, because they don’t have marketing budget to drive customers, they’ll start dropping away and leaving holes in key territories and customer service problems.
You know, most people who are proponents of Burnlounge never make these assumptions in public. And it’s funny, the message is so targeted toward’s enticing people to “make money” befort it is to “sell music”, that I think people need time to digest the info, and then they don’t really have the opportunity to ask questions. I also feel that Burnlounge reps and moguls think that everyone of their respective affiliate reps will be a stellar sales and marketing person and that will drive the market. I have news for you, those people are their own “employees” and many of them may be their own worst enemy.
{I feel that we have a major compelling advantage over I tunes in that we have the ability and the desire to ingest independent artists content to our stores in roughly 10 days. This was not possible through Loudeye and so BL built it’s own program in house. This will allow us to build the largest catalog of indie artists in the world and this is already happening. Did your presenter mention this? Did they even know about it?}
If I’m an independent artist, I can set up Musicane and sell music on my own web site in less time that you can get it in your store. And who cares about getting indy artists in the burnlounge chain if thousands of your affiliates are promoting major label artists on the fronts on their web sites? You seem to think that every Burnlounger will focus on indy artists. Hey…I have MP3.com and Emusic for that–MySpace or other sites that promote the indy artist over the major artist. You’re going to have mixed marketing messages across hundreds of Burnlounge sites, and consumers will be confused about which Burnlounge site they saw what piece of music on. People like one place, one branded organization they can trust for their music purchases.
I also don’t see giving someone my credit card number that I met on the street who says he or she has Burnlounge store. I’m going to buy from a trusted source, in one place I can always go back to with strong customer service. Even if a single Burnlounger is successful, that person will then have to hire “employees,” which you seem to dread and they’ll have their hands full.
{Let’s talk about the artists for a second. I’m not even up to a “C level” in the music business but I have friends who have gotten record deals, thought they were set, only to make a few thousand and have the sales fizzle out.}
So? Maybe they sucked? Just because you got a record deal, doesn’t mean people are going to buy your record. This is the music business, isn’t it?
{Burn Lounge is nothing more than a digital street team, The street team marketing model is not on trial as it was proven by Ludicrous and many other artists. However to develop a street team an artists needs product right? Not with BL. They have no production hard costs for CDs, no delivery problems and can in fact market their music at a lower cost. There is NO CHARGE to the artists for this service.}
There is a charge to the artist for this service. The artist has to pay an entry fee and a percentage of all sales to burnlounge. You should clarify that before you put it out there.
Everyone incurs costs. The marketing costs are still the same whether you have a brick and mortar operation or an online store. If you don’t market your service and invest in yourself, real dollars, than how do you expect to get back. Especially when, you know have to compete with hundreds of other Burnloungers, in addition to iTunes and the rest of the download stores. Remember, you’re competing against your brother and your sister burnlounger, because there is no territorial advantage. So, how do you differentiate yourself from them? How do you expect to make more with your store than their store? At the end of the day, you’re not a huge street team; you are hundreds of small businesses competing against each other. Mark my words…there’s gonna be trouble in paradise.
{Additionally the artists are not put in a “box” by the labels who only want them to make music that is of a style they know sells. In my opinion this robs the artists of their creative rights to make the music they want, how they want.}
Artist’s sign record deals to get distribution to the masses. Sometimes, you have to compromise your creativity for a few years in order to have the mass appeal and star power you are seeking, and then you have the freedom to do what you want. Today, this is a known fact. If you sign a record deal, then you may be put in a box by the marketing department, who justifiably so, because they are giving you the money to record, can do that since they are ones who may know where your music is going to sell. We all sit here and blame the labels for everything, and that’s cool, because they do a lot to stupid stuff, but is it all there fault? Can every artist make it? I say no. And, what does all this have to do with Burnlounge anyway. You are exploiting the artists the same as the record labels. You didn’t create the music, but you’ll try to sell it to anyone who comes to your download store to buy it. I’d like to see you tell someone they can’t buy downloads on your store, because it will jeopardize your artistic integrity. So, don’t be a hypocritical because you, along with the thousands of other Burnlounger’s can’t wait to sell the music that has been creatively compromised.
{Interestingly enough our number 1 sellers have been indie artists who are partnering with their fan base. Is it possible that by partnering with their fans and offering them burn rewards or(if they choose the affiliate or mogul level CASH) they might stop stealing the music? Ask Ted Nugent or read what he has to say at http://burnlounge.com/nugent.}
To tell you the truth, I don’t really care what Ted Nugent says. I care what the Burnlounger who doesn’t have Ted Nugent’s high profile says. Sure, Nugent is going to capitalize on his name and likeness that were cemented by major label exposure. If he didn’t have that, he’d be like the rest of us.
{I tunes, no matter what you say has backed themselves into a corner with their refusal to allow compatibilty with other devices. Check it out for yourself and you will find that some countries are considering NOT allowing i tunes to market in their respective countries.}
Who cares about formats. What I’m talking about here is a multi-level marketing effort by Burnlounge to enlist thousands of people to sell tracks from their Burnlounge pages who have little experience in promoting, marketing or selling music. And when many of those people don’t see the returns they were expecting, then little by little, those people will start to lose interest in shut down their Burnlounge sites, leaving their customers in the lurch with no one to call.
{Are you old enough to remember BETA tapes (PRE VHS) brought out by 1 MFG who much like Steve Jobs had a short sighted mentality that they THOUGHT would garner them a larger market share. Where is BETA today? Gone! Superceded by a product that allowed other manufactures to produce equipment which played the VHS tape and then the DVD.}
Again, I’m not talking about formats. I’m talking about the fact that you have 10,000 or so Burnlounge multi-level marketers trying to compete for 30% of the music pie. And, what that mean’s to the music download space overall. As the record labels begin to ask for higher prices and the public continues to demand lower prices, the middle guys, i.e. the Burnloungers, are the ones who are going to get squeezed.
{Competiton is good for any industry as it drives prices down and makes for a better over all product for the end consumer.}
Yes, competition is good for an industry. Driving prices down is great, but when you get to the floor, there’s little money to be made on the product, and you have to do VOLUME to squeeze that water from that rock. How many Burnlounge affiliates will have the patience, perservance and marketing muscle to make that happen for them. How many of them even know how to market a download store? There may be a few who succeed at the top, but there are disappointing hundreds of others for a wasted effort at the bottom. You can’t honestly say to me that every Burnlounger will make money? Because they won’t.
{Does Viral marketing work? You tell me: I know for a fact that Sprint started with an MLM company called network 2000, I know for a fact that MCI used friends and family very succesfully to take market share from the former monopoly known as At & T. I know for a fact that Net Zero and Hot mail garnered millions of customers.}
Okay…who’s doing better, AT&T or MCI? Seems to me that MCI/Worldcome were in a pretty bad place a few years ago? No? I’d rather be AT&T, thank you. I’d rather buy from the leader and get quality over quantity, but that’s just me.
{There was also a CRAZY high school football coach named Art Williams who wanted to use the concept of friends and family marketing to sell insurance. The insurance industry thought he was nuts yet the next year his Co., A.L. Williams (he put a lot of thought into the name) outsold 3 of the largest insurance companies COMBINED. Today that Co is known as Primerica and all of the companies I mentioned have been a part of some very large mergers, acquistions and IPO’s on wall street.}
Not familiar with Primerica’s model.
{As for your comments on employees our model does not require or recommend this. I have had a company with employees and every employee equals 1 headache. This is to put it bluntly a better way to make money}
I don’t recall where I wrote something about employees, but aren’t you an employee of Burnlounge, in essence, as they pay you every time you sell a track? So, you must be a headache to them, in your own eyes, no?
There is no best way to make money. No, let me take that back, the best way to make money is to print it youself. LOL.
All kidding aside, the best way to make money, is to earn it. That’s my opinion.
{As for your comments on the % paid out please allow me to respond with the correct information. First of all you are pretty close to 1 portion of the pay we earn as retailers. You forgot or perhaps your presenter did not know how to explain the other portion.}
No, I didn’t forget to explain the other MLM portion. I have in my past postings discussed the shares of revenue a mogul gets from signing up hundreds of other affiliates. You take a piece as the transaction is passed along. This is not franchising, though. In no way does MLM resemble franchising, other than the distribution of the software to hundreds of people who will use a similar product to take the download transaction.
{I have friends here in Dallas who own one of the largest dry cleaning franchises in existence today. They make millions on small transactions. Why? Because they have tons of stores. During their initial growth phase did they make their money on cleaning clothes? No! They made it by selling brick and mortar stores to entrepeuners who wanted to own thier own business.}
This is true franchising. I will set up a model for you, and I will take a piece of your transaction and that’s it. And, you’re territory is protected by a 1.5 mile or so radius, so no other franchises can infringe on your territory unless its approved by the franchiser.
I think it is absolutely wrong to compare traditional franchising to multi-level marketing. It’s misleading, unethical and it may be illegal, becuase you would be fraudulently leading a potential affiliate to think he or she is only sharing revenue at the top and that they would have a protected territory. With Burnlounge, this is definitely not the case.
I really dislike when people compare Burnlounge to a franchise. It is not a franchise model, period.
[In much the same manner BL pays the moguls to help them build out the marketplace with digital stores. However, compared to a true Franchise our model is affordable by the masses. We did this to make it easy for millions to participate. Once we have a few million stores we will be out selling I tunes with no problem.}
Again, the Burnlounge model is NOT A FRANCHISE model. It is a MLM model that will benefit people at the top on the sweat of everyon at the bottom, who DO NOT RECEIVE an equal share of the pie. In my opinion, this is unethical and exploitive and I will not stand by idly and do or say nothing about it. I have the right to my opinion and as you can see, I have freely allowed others to express their opinion here on this blog, no matter whether I think it’s right or wrong.
{By the way i tunes has sold over 1 billion now, not 500,000. We sold voer 100,000 downloads last month (we are still in BETA phase), we are on pace to sell over 1 million in May and quite frankly I think we will hit 1 billion downloads quicker than I tunes. This will only be possible by enlisting the help of music lovers & entrepenuers in the US today and eventually on the international market.}
I don’t recall where I wrote 500,000, but I do know iTunes is over a billion downloads. Is that bad for the music business? Is that bad for artists? I don’t think so. Maybe the pricing model could be changed and people would accept paying a bit more for music, but the music industry screwed up when they tried to fight “free” instead of building a legal music service in the late 90’s. They put themselves in this box, because they are the one’s that negotiated the agreements in the first place. The public didn’t have a say in it.
Good luck with 1 Billion download. Haven’t iTunes already hit that mark? I don’t understand your comment.
{Speaking of the international market do you think that Japanese nationals here in America would like to have access to their countries music? What about people from Hawaii who love Island music but can’t easily get it here in the mainland? Our model allows us to ingest content from other countries just like we do for indie artists and labels.}
{I’m sorry that your presenter told you not to come back. In my experience when you have total confidence in what you are doing you need not fear inspections or other opinions.}
Regadless of whether my presenter told me to come back on not…no thank you. I do not want to be a part of Burnlounge at this point. As I said, I don’t feel MLM is an ethical way of doing business, and I choose not to participate. Until all affiliates are on the same level and all share equally in the profits, I’ll stay on the sidelines.
{Typically in MLM the reps are forced to sell a product that is over priced in order to “feed” the comp plan. We are the same price as i tunes.}
You are the same price as iTunes, but yet, none of your tracks can play on the iPod, nor can they play on Sony devices, which play A-Trac format. Why you keep comparing yourself to iTunes and not defining a new market is a mystery to me, if iTunes is so bad?
Everyone wants to be the big guy, so they kick him in the shins over and over again until they knock him over. Then, when they become the big guy, they forget how they got there.
{For years the so called MLM gurus have said that by the 2000’s 50% of all goods and services will be sold via MLM. BS! Not as long as the companies are selling over priced goods.}
Of course, MLM gurus are going to say that. They are at the top of the Ponzi pyramid leading the sheep to their demise.
{Fortunately todays technolgy allows Burn Lounge. http://burnlounge.com/gregw to sell our products at the same price as I tunes.}
{My advice? Get in. You might be glad you did, and as you stated the initial miniscule investment is a write off any way.}
No thanks. I’ll invest my time and energy elswhere. Why am I going to spend $400 plus dollars to write it off anyway. I’d rather spend and make money on my investment than to spend and take the loss.
Tony Z.
Greg ” you might be a networker Warford”
April 5th, 2006 at 4:35 pm
Tony,
Thanks for posting my replies. I think you are DUMB. Like a fox!!
By stirring up controvesy about Burn Lounge you will no doubt explode the hits to your website. Why? Because Burn Lounge is Cool, fun and people like it.
I feel the need to reply one LAST time. After this if you want to talk to me shoot me an email and I’ll gladly discuss BL with you. In a forum that is not serving YOUR interests to the possible detriment of a company that is simply providing a good MLM company to those who may wish to take advantage of it.
First off. No I’ am not an employee of Burn Lounge. I’m an independent retailer or 1099 independent contractor. When you hire employees you are in a completely different category. Thi is not me saying this but the federal tax code. As a business owner you are more than aware of this, or did you also forget that you said that you were a business owner
Next off I am not comparing Bl to a franchise by any means and I apologize if my attempt to explain the MLM model in a simplistic format for your little brain fell short and mis led you. A franchise is indeed protected by territory. It also costs tens of thousands to invest in. The advantage is that in essence you get to piggy back on the name and experience. All this for a price of course.
The fact is that most people can’t afford a franchise but many still want to create an income in addition to their JOB. MLM should be a great way to do this but unfortunately the industry has been beat up and in many cases the bad PR is well deserved. Not in this case though
There are no territories with BL. The playing field is level for all who wish to try the model. There are no gaurantees either. Just like in any other business
You said that the fans are not the best people to sell music and that most reps will sell the content of the majors. Some will, some won’t. That is the purpose of the internal content editor. So they can place their favorite music on the front of the site.
I said there is no cost to the artist for ingesting their content. True to your half assed self serving style you took this like any other comments that you could not logically rebutt out of context. The ingestion of content is free and the artists only pay a commision when their music is sold. They do not have to become a retailer or affiliate.
I was trying to compare the SENSIBILTY of this model to an artist who may not have a lot of money for production costs. The fact is they do not have to pay for producing or delivering the music in the form of CDS. You even tried to make a comparison to myspace. There is no money in the my space model for artists. How does that compare?
You said that “you are not talking about format” I’ll check back with you in 2 years. It’s simply history repeating itself and it’s ALL ABOUT FORMAT
You said that you are not familair with the Primerica model. If you are going to pass judgement on an industry shouldn;’t you take the time to look at the succesful models? Oh yeah I forgot. you don’t really care about the TRUTH only about getting your blog out there.
For example I named a handful of companies that have succesfully used viral marketing and you chose 1 (MCI) to comment about. The fact is that I used to work for At & T and when the cingular merger began to be discussed about 20 of us lost our jobs.
They are a good company but the fact remains that there is no security in the work force any more for the average American and every body should have a plan B. If they can afford a franchise they can explore those opportunities but for most this is simply out of reach.
I said you should join, you said NO THANKS. In your blog at the bottom you said I’ll probaly join them…
I said that i tunes has sold over 1 billion not 500,000. You said I don;t recall saying that…
This leads me back to my first thoughts after reading your reply. You don’t really care about the truth, nor do you even recall if you WROTE the truth. Amazing!
If you want the truth then let’s hop on the phone. I’ll debate you in an open forum or a private call. I’ll not continue to waste my time here in a forum that has no interest in the truth and even worse with a so called writer that can’t even remember what he supposedly wrote…
In closing I’m not saying the MLM model is for everyone it is not. But I will say that at least BL has a product that is priced the same as I tunes. I will say that at least they are providing a fair opportunity to those who wish to work at it and at least the reps don’t have to explain why the products cost SO MUCH MORE. And it is good for the artists, period.
No MLM is not for everyone. Most people don’t understand it at all. You certainly have no clue about our pay plan based on some of your comments. However some of us LESSER individuals than your self need a fair chance to make a living. Not for you? fine! Those who can’t should not get in the way of those who can and are doing it.
I doubt that you’ll post this because it does not serve you but either way I’ll not be back. I’ll be busy making it happen.
AS far as getting rich? I’ll compare 1099’s with you any year any time.
Greg Warford
Burn Lounge Independent Retailer, not an employee or apparently not in the same caliber as you when it comes to writing. At least I’ll probably remember what I wrote though…
April 5th, 2006 at 8:01 pm
Greg:
First, of course I’ll post your reply. This is an open forum and I’m not about to censor someone who wants to critique me. That would be un-democratic of me, wouldn’t it?
Second, I’m glad you called me “dumb” and that I have a little brain. If I’m so dumb and have a brain so little, why are you debating me?
Third, I’d rather keep the debate in an open forum so everyone can see your replies and my rebuttals. That way, it’s all out there for everyone to see that, assuming you have “mogul” status, it is in your own self interests to reap a profit off of everyone else below you, who gets less of a share then you do. When you talk about artistic integrity, where is your integrity when it comes to an equal divesiture of profits for everyone across the board?
You stand to reap thousands of pennies from every Burnlounger affiliate you sign up as a “mogul”, and then those people have to work harder, and the next set have to work even harder to get a share of the pennies of major and indpendent label sales.
If I am simply just a guy who wants to open a store, I have to go to you before I go to Burnlounge and you take a piece of my action, then Burnlounge takes a piece, then either Loudeye or the indy artist takes a piece, and if not the artist, then the label.
It doesn’t take this small brain to figure out that there will only be so many people attracted to opening Burnlounge stores. I am already reading or hearing about people who are saying to me that so many people have approached them about Burnlounge to compete for their interest, business or whatever you want to call it.
If a circle of friends are competing against each other in small markets, where does the growth come from if everyone’s an affiliate?
Greg, I really do admire your passiona and enthusiasm for Burnlounge. But you must respect the fact that I have an opinion that you do not agree with. And that is your right. However, I am trying to let people know about something I don’t believe in, whereas you’re out there trying to convince people it’s in their best interests to become an affiliate member.
Tell me, if you are a “mogul,” would you allow anyone you signed up to achieve “mogul” status, and that person would not have to share revenues with you, and may even compete with you for new affiliates? What would you do?
If I opened a Subway on the corner of 2nd Ave and 3rd Street in Manhattan, my franchise agreement would probably say that there can’t be another Subway for, let’s say, 10 blocks in all directions. I have MY territory, and I can compete on price, service and hope that people will walk to my Subway franchise and buy from me because my employees are nice and my store is clean and I give them fast service.
If, like in Burnlounge’s case, there are 30 Burnloungers in Boston, and some of them, because of the the theory of six degrees of separation, know the others…there is SO MUCH overlap that something has to give. 30 Burnloungers in a territory without borders simply cannot survive. That is my belief. Argue it you will, but I stand by that.
As for THE TRUTH, here I am, admitting that I wasn’t sure what I wrote, because I didn’t really feel the need to go back to my original post to see what I wrote. So, if you feel the need to call me on that, go ahead. No big deal. I don’t, like you, feel the need to have to go back to every single word and explain myself.
And, if you went back to read your own post, you would see that your words are confusing on the 1 Billion download question:
{By the way i tunes has sold over 1 billion now, not 500,000. We sold voer 100,000 downloads last month (we are still in BETA phase), we are on pace to sell over 1 million in May and quite frankly I think we will hit 1 billion downloads quicker than I tunes. This will only be possible by enlisting the help of music lovers & entrepenuers in the US today and eventually on the international market.}
Wait! Did iTunes sell 1 Billion already, but yet Burnlounge will reach 1 Billion before them? Let me reach into what you consider my “small mind” to understand this, because it doesn’t make any sense to me.
Also, why don’t you say that BL has a product that is the same price as iTunes, but then add, “it can’t be played on an device that does not support Windows Media DRM”?
BL’ers never tend to add that little tidbit in, now do they?
You want to talk about formats? Okay…people want their music now, and they want it to play on their preferred device. Predominantly, the iPod. When they buy from Burnlounge TODAY, they cannot play those files, unless you’re selling MP3’s, I don’t know. (See, I admit when I don’t know something).
These same people don’t care about the format wars. These same people don’t care how long its going to take to play out. As long as they can buy and play their music…that’s what they care about. Add to the fact that you can own an iPod and attach it to a Windows computer to download your music too, that’s pretty attractive. So until you come up with a better solution than that, let me know, because I want to ride on that boat.
See…and I didn’t even call you any names! That’s what good, healthy debate is about. Discussion about the issues. I have my opinion, you have yours and we can agree to disagree.
Oh, one more thing. As far as traffic goes, I wasn’t thinking about that when I first wrote about the issue, because I wrote about only after actually attending a Burnlounge event and hearing firsthand what was said in that room. I was a bit angy and concerned that BL did not give these people all the facts in that room, and that is my right to do.
Sure, now this subject has the most postings out of any subject on this blog, but I didn’t plan it that way, it just happened. And you know what, I don’t have to share the revenue from ads (the little I get) with anyone, because I own and operate Netmix, and that’s my right to make money, just like it’s your right to own a Burnlounge “mogul” (I think) status and make money off all your affiliates.
Why don’t you own up and say, yes, I have a special interest in seeing Burnlounge succeed, because it will enrich me on the backs of others who won’t share in the same success, because they are one level below me. You want to talk about artist integrity and what the artist doesn’t get and that the artist is put in a box, yada yada yada, but at the same time, you will sell those major labels tracks of those “box”ed up artists in your BL store without hesitation. Where is the self-integrity there? I’m looking around and I don’t see it…hmmmm?
So, don’t come here, to someone who’s been in the music business for 25-years, with that argument that someone’s gotta look out for the independent artist…because you want to exploit that artist the same as any indy label or major label wants to, because you want to make money. Until you call or email every artist in your catalog and ask them how they want to be represented in your BL store, and then you change what is contained in your store to respect their wishes, your argument holds about as much water as the Mojave Desert I drove through on my way to Vegas a few weeks ago.
C’mon man…admit it…you want to MAKE MONEY off of the artist’s your selling and the artist’s your extending sales team is selling. Nothing wrong with that…but don’t come to me with that I’m all about artistic integrity crap. If you’re in MLM, then you’re a capitalist just like the rest of us. Be who you are man. Do you.
Have fun with your reply…I’m looking forward to it.
Tony Z.
April 5th, 2006 at 8:21 pm
Michael:
Thanks for writing.
As far as I know, and what I wrote in my first post is, the first split between a mogul and Burnlounge is this:
Major Label: $0.70 per download
Loudeye $0.12 to 0.18 cents per download
Burnlounge $0.10 per download
Mogul $0.12 cents if loudeye takes 0.12., $0.7 cents if loudeye takes 0.18
This is on a $0.99 cent track.
I don’t know what the split is on a track that costs $1.99, but it stands to reason that it’s similar.
The Mogul split his/her share with the affiliate. Don’t know if it’s 50/50, but most likely it is. Someone would have to confirm this for me. That leaves you with 6 cents on the high end and 3.5 cents on the low end if you’re an affiliate.
Now, keep doing down levels, from 3 to 6, and the split of the 12 cents on the high end or the 7 cents on the low end starts to get divied up again and again and again. If you’re six levels out…you’re making a smidgen and everyone up the food chain is getting a piece of your action, so how are you supposed to get ahead? Work harder than they do, so you can make yourself some money, while they collect money for turning you onto Burnlounge.
That’s how I see it works. I could be wrong. Hopefully, someone will let me know if this is really true.
Tony Z.
April 6th, 2006 at 7:25 pm
I’m still confused.
If the label gets $0.70 that leaves $0.29
Let’s say for simplicity that Loudeye gets an average of $0.15 – that leaves $0.14.
Now if BL is getting $0.10 that leaves $0.04 – or what part of that am I misunderstanding?
Again, I find it simply AMAZING that there are so many pro-burnloungers here SLAMMING you for questioning the program, yet NONE of them have any idea what the real payout is on this program.
I believe it is because none of them expect to actually make money selling the music anyway. It’s recruitment that makes you money with BL. I’m working up a spreadsheet and TRYING to figure out what the payouts would be. If Tony is even close to correct, then it is virtually IMPOSSIBLE to make any sort of real money selling MUSIC on BL.
Come on Burnlounge retailers – step up to the plate and explain the compensation plan. Can you?
April 6th, 2006 at 10:05 pm
Hi Michael:
This is exactly what I’m talking about. On sales of major label tracks, the labels take the $0.70, Loudeye takes the average of $0.15 and that leaves $0.14 cents to split between Burnlounge and the person at the “Mogul” level. This is only for a $0.99 cents track. I don’t know what the split is on other tracks that cost more.
The “Mogul” level is one level from Burnlounge. “Mogul’s” sign up affiliates underneath them. So for every affiliate a mogul signs up, he takes $.02 cents of that affiliates transaction (I think that’s true, but I’ve never confirmed it). Now, what about an affiliate of an affiliate? Do they split and get $0.01 each.
Now, if you are a record label or an artist and you want to use Burnlounge technology to sell your own tracks, then that’s a very different story. You split 60/40 with Burnlounge on the sales of your own tracks. It’s a little pricey, but not abnormal. I’m not knocking the “own your music, sell it through burnlounge” format.
What I’m knocking is the MLM major label sales gimmick. Who makes money? The guys who own Burnlounge on the sign-ups, and the “Moguls” who own all the affiliates. Once you get down past that, you have to sell a couple of hundred thousand tracks to buy a cup of coffee.
And remember, you have to sell them to only 30% of a market that can play the tracks on a Windows Media enabled device, which cuts your market down drastically.
AND, you have to compete with iTunes, Rhapsody, Napster, Yahoo, AOL Music, Verizon VCast among others with no marketing budget to speak of.
I think it’s a joke…but that’s just me.
I’m glad you may be in agreement.
Tony
April 7th, 2006 at 12:07 pm
Oh, I’m in agreement Tony. I’m just trying to be fair and openminded. My plan was to see what kind of sales it would take (of MUSIC) for Burnlounge to produce a reasonable income.
From what I can see, no one knows what the actual payout on music sales is to the affiliate (which is ASTONISHING to me) to even run a spreadsheet.
Using a best case scenario of 6 personal stores for a mogul, and having ALL of his downline with 6 stores (each selling 24 albums a month) produces some astonishingly huge numbers in sales and units. But looking at the available $ to share upline 6 levels, it produces some astonishingly LOW returns to the mogul. Obviously, with the information so difficult to obtain, it is hard to come up with a hard and fast number, but I think that I can come up with some “extreme best case scenarios” that will show a maximum profit of less than $24k a year, and that is with an extremely optimistic “best case” scenario.
I will say that without selling recruitment packages, most people will be luck to BREAK EVEN and a few might see a very little extra money from Burnlounge.
I’ll play with the numbers over the weekend and see what I can come up with…
April 7th, 2006 at 4:48 pm
How it works is simple
There are 3 ways to be a retailer
Fan
Affilate
Mogul
THE FAN program allows you to earn burn rewards points and be redeemed for burnlounge music and merchandise.
AFFILIATE program
Affilates also earn burnrewards points but they can redeem them for cash
affilates can also build a sales team and make cash from the stores they sponsor, affiliates also earn bonuses when other stores sale music.
Mogul program
Moguls also earn burnreward points, redeem them for cash and build a sales team but moguls qualify for additional bonuses above those avaible to affiliates
Affiliates and Moguls earn cash in the same way!!! 2 basic rules apply
The 5 cent rule/The 2 cent rule
The 5 cent rule means that you will never earn less than 5cents on any 99cent download sold by you from your site! thats called a personal sale
The 2 cent rule
The 2cent rule means you will never earn less than 2 cents on any 99 cent download sold by your direct team; meaning the moguls affiliates or fans that you have personaly sponsored.thats called a Direct team sale.
When a customer downloads a 99cent download from your site you get no less than 5 cents thats 5 cents for every customer that visits and buys directly from your own site.
you get 2 cents when a member of your direct team sales a 99cent download from their site. They get 5 cents you get 2.
you get 2 cents from every 5 cents they make.
You earn more through shared compensation and concentric retail
Shared Compensation allows you to earn on a percentage of the profit margin of each product sold through your Burnlounge site
and on the sites of those people on your sales team.
On your sales, you earn 5 cents on the dollar or 20 % of the profit margin which ever is greater.
On your direct team sales you earn 2 cents on the dollar or 12 % of the profit margin which ever is greater
Earning money on the sales of stores other than your own is made possible
by Concentric retail.
Concentric retail Allows you to earn on the sales of stores in your direct team and beyond.
Conentric retail starts with your store at the center, The first ring around you is made up your direct team stores, the stores you personaly sponsored.
The second ring is made of the stores that members of your direct team sponsored
and so on and so on up to a max of 6 rings of stores beyond you!
Your store you earn 20%
Ring 1 you earn 12%
Ring 2 you earn 5%
Ring 3 you earn 5%
Ring 4 you earn 5%
Ring 5 you earn 5%
Ring 6 you earn 8%
_______________________
Concentric How it works is simple
There are 3 ways to be a retailer
Fan
Affilate
Mogul
THE FAN program allows you to earn burn rewards points and be redeemed for burnlounge music and merchandise.
AFFILIATE program
Affilates also earn burnrewards points but they can redeem them for cash
affilates can also build a sales team and make cash from the stores they sponsor, affiliates also earn bonuses when other stores sale music.
Mogul program
Moguls also earn burnreward points, redeem them for cash and build a sales team but moguls qualify for additional bonuses above those avaible to affiliates
Affiliates and Moguls earn cash in the same way!!! 2 basic rules apply
The 5 cent rule/The 2 cent rule
The 5 cent rule means that you will never earn less than 5cents on any 99cent download sold by you from your site! thats called a personal sale
The 2 cent rule
The 2cent rule means you will never earn less than 2 cents on any 99 cent download sold by your direct team; meaning the moguls affiliates or fans that you have personaly sponsored.thats called a Direct team sale.
When a customer downloads a 99cent download from your site you get no less than 5 cents thats 5 cents for every customer that visits and buys directly from your own site.
you get 2 cents when a member of your direct team sales a 99cent download from their site. They get 5 cents you get 2.
you get 2 cents from every 5 cents they make.
You earn more through shared compensation and concentric retail
Shared Compensation allows you to earn on a percentage of the profit margin of each product sold through your Burnlounge site
and on the sites of those people on your sales team.
On your sales, you earn 5 cents on the dollar or 20 % of the profit margin which ever is greater.
On your direct team sales you earn 2 cents on the dollar or 12 % of the profit margin which ever is greater
Earning money on the sales of stores other than your own is made possible
by Concentric retail.
Concentric retail Allows you to earn on the sales of stores in your direct team and beyond.
Conentric retail starts with your store at the center, The first ring around you is made up your direct team stores, the stores you personaly sponsored.
The second ring is made of the stores that members of your direct team sponsored
and so on and so on up to a max of 6 rings of stores beyond you!
Your store you earn 20%
Ring 1 you earn 12%
Ring 2 you earn 5%
Ring 3 you earn 5%
Ring 4 you earn 5%
Ring 5 you earn 5%
Ring 6 you earn 8%
_______________________
Concentric/ YOU /of the profit margin
I hope this is understood !!!!
http://www.zellymusic.com
April 7th, 2006 at 4:54 pm
Sorry for double post who knows what happend
By the way these numbers are bases on sales of Products in your store where you are not the owner of the product
if you are the owner of music sold you get no less than 50% on any of your singles or albums sold on your site or any ones site
if you are not the owner then the system explained indicates what to expect
April 8th, 2006 at 3:58 pm
Trinity,
Ok, I read all that in the http://www.explainburnlounge.com/docs/ConcentricRetail.pdf file.
I guess the question is, “What is the profit margin?” Because right now, it looks REALLY SMALL (and even negative in some cases). Any idea to figure at least a RANGE that it might fall under?
As Tony said, let’s go with the $0.70 to the label. That leaves $0.29.
Loudeye gets between $0.12 to $0.18 per download.
That leaves $0.11 to $0.17.
Tony says Burnlounge gets $0.10 per download. That would leave $0.01 to $0.08 per download leftover for retailers.
If that is so, then the numbers just don’t even add up anymore. Because you are getting $0.05 minimum, and presumably one up from you is getting $0.02 so that is $0.07 cents.
The $0.99 doesn’t split that many ways. And we aren’t even going upline past the direct team yet.
Can you explain how it works? Thanks!
May 4th, 2006 at 1:53 pm
I went to a meeting at Sutra in NYC the other night. It was very “Amway”-ish to me. If I am not mistaken it’s $444 to sign up as a mogul. I think there is an annual fee too. Tony I appreciate this blog and I will fwd it to a few other folk who are VERY CLUELESS as to the profit margin. I must say I am a skeptic. As an artist myself, I can see how it can get my music heard however I question the Licencing agreement you have to strike up with BL. There is a Fortune article on them April 3rd, 2006 issue be Reed Tucker and a Billboard page by Antony Bruno in their “Retail” section. Check them out.
May 4th, 2006 at 1:58 pm
http://www.burnreview.com/documents/docs_instant_audience.pdf
I am not sure if this will come up as a PDF. Try it… I will attempt to cut and paste below:
LICENSING AND MARKETING YOUR MUSIC THROUGH BURNLOUNGE
WHAT IS BURNLOUNGE?
A first in the world of music and entertainment
BurnLounge is the world’s first community-powered digital download
service that allows anyone, in a matter of minutes, to open their own
customizable online music store.
A new kind of sales force
Because BurnLounge retailers can tailor the presentation of their store
and select the music they promote, they become an entirely new kind
of sales and marketing force for the music they love, recommending
and selling it to family, friends and fellow fans.
What this means for artists and labels
For artists and labels, BurnLounge has created a compelling new
promotional channel, driven by a built-in community of devoted fans
eager to endorse and spread the word about their favorite artists to
music-hungry consumers. And because the BurnLounge community
is interconnected, music has the potential to spread quickly to
entirely new audiences.
BURNLOUNGE LICENSES THE WORLD OF MUSIC.
BurnLounge licenses music from the catalogs of ALL four major labels…
…from a host of major digital aggregators of independent music…
…from a growing list of independent labels in the U.S. and
abroad…
…and directly from independent artists themselves,
some of whom have their own BurnLounge stores.
(Labels with large numbers of titles do not need
to submit copies of their music with the License Request Form.)
Questions can be directed by email to aandr@burnlounge.com. You can find answers to many questions
in the BurnLounge Licensing FAQ, available in the Training section of the BurnLounge B.M.S. Resource Center.
After the License Agreement is sent to you, review, sign and return the agreement.
HOW ARTISTS AND LABELS CAN USE THEIR OWN BURNLOUNGE SITE.
Licensing your music to make it available to thousands of BurnLounge stores is just the first step.
The next step is to become a BurnLounge retailer yourself, which gives you the ability to assemble
a far-reaching sales team for your music.
Here are some ways artists and labels can use their own BurnLounge site:
• Artists and labels can market, promote and distribute their music online.
• Artists and labels can link to their BurnLounge store from their existing
web site. This enables them to sell their own downloads to fans,
as well as any of the music in the entire BurnLounge library.
• Unsigned artists can set up a distribution network by inviting
their fans to become retailers.
• Unsigned artists can be featured on the home pages of
BurnLounge stores alongside established, major label bands.
• Qualifying artists and labels can create a network of
BurnLounge fan stores — without having to open and
maintain their own — through the BurnForce program.
For more information, email aandr@burnlounge.com.
FOUR EASY STEPS TO LICENSING YOUR MUSIC THROUGH BURNLOUNGE.
Download and complete the License Request Form, available in the Forms
section of the BurnLounge B.M.S. Resource Center.
Send the request form with a CD of your music to the
BurnLounge A&R department.
May 29th, 2006 at 11:31 am
BurnLounge – MLM Comes to Digital Music…
I first heard about BurnLounge earlier this year and have since heard a little more about them. They want to be the Amway of digital music — have armies of music fans and entrepreneures set up their own digital music…
June 7th, 2006 at 10:02 pm
How would you like to own a online business selling Legal Music Downloads?
Right now is your chance!
A Groundlevel opportunity – Get In Early!
Visit my site below
https://www.burnlounge.com/markanthonysmusic
Here it is in a nutshell…the music industry is changing…I-Tunes just had
it’s billionth song downloaded.
More and more people are buying music online.
This is the Buzz of the Music Industry.
Have your own site with 1.5 million songs..from all genres of music.
Rap- Hip-hop – country – rock – christian – etc.
Best of all anytime someone downloads a song from your site..you get paid.
You get paid almost as much as the Artist who recorded it.
When anyone who signs up under you makes a sell, you make $$$$
If you are interested in making some money and you love music and networking.
THIS IS THE JOB FOR YOU.
Check out my site…register on the site…Download some music.
If you like it and you want a store of your own just let me know and we will
make it happen!
https://www.burnlounge.com/markanthonysmusic
email me @ Familyauc@hotmail.com
For alot more info about burnlounge visit the site below
https://www.tiptopwebsite.com/manthy
Be sure and visit the link above…. it is loaded with info!
Join My team and we will succeed together!
Regards,
Mark Anthony
August 28th, 2006 at 1:58 am
What a site here! I am amazed at all the the talk about this “BURNLOUNGE.”
Let me just say this…There will always be critics of anything like this. I’ve noticed that Amway has been mentioned here quite a few times–ALWAYS in a negative sense. Nobody seems to take into consideration that Amway has been around for 30 years now! They also generate around 6 BILLION a year in revenue…and they’re DEBT FREE! Not too many businesses can claim EITHER! How about Mary Kay? I could go on and on. Well, you say, “It’s a ‘pyramid’”–Duh, just about every major business entity in the world appears to appear that way, after all, there’s usually one person at the top…and it spreads on down from there. The closer to the top you are, the more money you seem to make. If that’s not a “pyramid”–I don’t know what is! When it comes to MLM, one merely needs to know how to market their products…and themselves. Most do not know how–which is why they can’t make it. That doesn’t mean that there is something wrong with the product, or the company. That means there’s something wrong with THEM!
It takes a lot of work–and most are simply TOO LAZY–they want something for nothing! Well, there’s no free lunch; You’ve got to do the work…and that’s in anything!
Likewise. just because you’re an “expert,” doesn’t mean you’d recognize a good idea if it banged you over the head! Consider this, Lord Kelvin, a Scottish engineer, mathematician, and physicist, in 1899, had this to say about radio, “Radio has no future. Heavier-than-air flying machines are impossible. X-rays will prove to be a hoax.” Or this statement by Ferdinand Foch, commander in chief of the Allied armies at the end of World War 1, “Airplanes are interesting toys but of no military value.” Or this, by Elisha Gray, renowned inventer who eventually relented and turned in a patent for the telephone–mere hours after Alexander Graham Bell submitted his, “Bell seems to be spending all his energies in [the] talking telegraph. While this is very interesting scientifically, it has no commercial value…I don’t want at present to spend my time and money for that which will bring no reward.” Or this, comment by Lee De Forest, the “Father of Radio,” “While theoretically and technically television may be feasible, commercially and financially, I consider it an impossibility.” How about this Yale management professor’s response to future Federal Express founder Fred Smith’s thesis proposing an overnight delivery service, “The concept is interesting and well formed, but in order to earn better than a C, the idea must be feasible.” And who can forget the Chairman of the board of IBM, Thomas Watson’s comment in 1943, “I think there’s a world market for maybe five computers.” I could list even more but I hope my point has been made.
The simply fact is, BurnLounge is an idea that has been in the making for approximately 4 years, and the people behind it are serious about changing the way we buy our music–AND Ring Tones, Movies, Games, Books, etc. They’re only getting started with the music. Granted, they only offer about 1.5 million tunes for now–but that will change. The 2.0 service will be out in 2007…WATCH OUT! (anyone who remembers i-tunes when they first launched will know full well that it sucked in the beginning…as did AOL 1.0–now they’ve got 13.0!). Furthermore, I know a few of the guys who sat down with Alex Arnold some four years ago when this thing was nothing more than four bullet points on a napkin. When Rick Dees (American Top 40) saw it, he said said back then that this will change everything! Believe me folks…it WILL INDEED!!! You can criticize it all you want, but the fact of the matter is, it WILL have a major impact on the way we buy music, movies, etc….and there are some very big players involved who will see it through–while it passes YOU by, I might add.
I might also add that several BIG NAMES have aligned themselves with BurnLounge as well. Names like Elvis Presley( well okay, Elvis Presley Enterprises), Hootie and the Blowfish, James Brown, Danica Patrick, Ted Nugent, Stryper, Doc McGhee, and many more. Also, some new artists, like Coffey Anderson (Most likely BurnLounge’s first Platium artist), and Just Jinjer ( from South Africa…they couldn’t get a record deal when they moved to LA–but they’re doing great on BurnLounge), and so many more.
The fact of the matter is, movie downloading is already hurting Blockbuster so bad that they will not be around much longer. And the world’s largest record company, Tower Records, filed bankruptcy last week. All the while, LIVE NATION partnered up with BurnLounge a few weeks ago…and more are lining up. Nokia has also partnered up with them–and their phones will play the BurnLounge downloads. Verizon’s new chocolate phone will too. Everybody keeps talking about the i-pod this, and the i-pod that–Well I’m here to tell you–the i-pod will be like the 8-track & cassette tapes–GONE! The trend is going to EVERYTHING on your phone–NOT having a phone AND an i-pod…and whatever else. Go to Europe, Asia, etc. and check it out for yourself. BTW, nobody said a WORD about the fact that i-tunes does not even have albums! BurnLounge DOES…and to stay “qualified as a “Mogel,” one must purchase 2 albums a month (there’s where some more of the money is generated for payout). Talk about “incentive!” I GUARANTEE you that MY family and friends will be (are now) buying their music from me (or they’ve got a store of there own (which ALSO benefits me). Add to that, all of the other BurnLounger’s out there who have family and friends (which is growing so fast it’s unbelievable), and you cannot help but put a BIG DENT into Apple’s profits (which do not come from i-tunes at all, but from having to buy the i-pods to play the music). Here are the facts, the brick and morter stores simply cannot compete with BurnLounge–they have no inventory, no buildings, NO ADVERTISING!!! Furthermore, at LEAST BurnLounge is making it possible for the average Joe to get involved on three different levels–ALL of which give the Fan, Affiliate, or Mogel, an opportunity to put a little something back into their pockets, whether it be “rewards” or “cash.” What does i-tunes give you for buying your music from them? Surely you’ve got to appreciate a service that gives you something back in return–they’re way of thanking you for doing your business with them! On top of it all–it’s FUN! Where else can you have your own, customizable, digital download store, which, while it only has music now…will have Ring Tones, Movies, Games, Books, Concert Tickets–all for as little as 29.95!!! The MOST it would cost a Mogel (taking into account the upfront costs and the monthly album sales to qualify, and a couple other monthly [optional] charges), is no more than $900. I don’t know too many businesses that a person can open AND operate for that meger amount. And speaking about “making money,” Well, I’ve SEEN the checks–so I don’t need to go there!!! When Papa Johns started out, he didn’t put his focus on making money off pizzas–he put his focus on setting up franchaises (@ $250,000 a pop). He did this for nine years. He knew one could only make so much money on a ten dollar pizza. Same here; One can only make so much money on a 99cent download (or a 10 dollar album, for that matter)–ESPECIALLY when you consider than only 1% of the world has even downloaded a song before! However, that’s where the REAL money comes in (as far as the music goes)–because that number will continue to grow…and FAST! Those who already have their stores in place will be in a position to reap the benefits. And with it–profit from Ring Tones, Movies, Games, Books, Concert Tickets, etc.
Believe what you will, it’s your right–but you WILL BE downloading all of this stuff ONLINE in the near future, wouldn’t you prefer to get a little something in return for a change? I’m not sure whether or not I’ll be back on this site or not (as I found it by accident), but if anyone has any GENIUNE questions about BurnLounge, feel free to drop me a line at: CatchTheWave@UBurnDigital.com…or call 815-788-8887. I have nothing to hide–and I have a vested interest in helping anyone who is SERIOUS about BurnLounge and having their own store. God bless you all!
August 30th, 2006 at 3:38 pm
go write for the new york press you scum thats the only job you will ever be hired for
September 2nd, 2006 at 10:55 pm
That’s an intelligent comment if I ever heard one. Doesn’t dignify a response.
September 6th, 2006 at 1:17 pm
Tony,
I understand where you are coming from, and believe me when I say, I was one of those people that signed up as a Mogul, dropped the $450, and then, exited stage left.
HOWEVER
I have reinvented only my time now, since I decided I would not let this thing just go to waste. By simply pitching this concept to a few college students at a large university nearby, I was able to recoup my investment. Then, something strange happened. Those student went and told others, and wouldn’t you know it, I started to see a little more cash trickle in, and over the next 2 months, I have built a team of retailers that got involved for various reasons. I have made triple my investment back in 3 months.
Now, if this thing blows up in my face, oh well, it was fun, and gave me the chance to be a part of something that is growing by the 1000’s.
I also get a kick out of your “I’m only doing my democratic duty to inform everyone else of what is right and wrong..” blah blah blah. No you are not. You are telling your OPINION to others, which is why you have a blog, and are not hired by Rolling Stone, Entertainment Weekly, and to a larger extent, why you are not not qualified to write a “consumer report” style blog.
I have no idea why you keep saying that “the further away from the top, the less you make” crap. Really? OBVIOUSLY if you are starting out, and you are below someone, you make zero until you get others involved. But, and I think you’ve missed the boat here, there is no DECREASE in the amount of $$ you receive when others go lower then you. You get the SAME amount/download from them, and so on, and so forth.
The bottom line is, it’s not for you.
One thing to keep in mind. What’s going to happen if, let’s say, Microsoft decided to really get into this game, and wanted to possibly find a partner like a Burnlounge community that will reach millions upon millions of consumers? Do you know? This is the same Microsoft that overtook Apple years ago to become the largest seller of software in the world.
If that happens, the only thing you’ll be writing about is “Why I did not invest my $400″ in case this thing does go that direction. I’ll take the chance. Making the $400 back is NOTHING. Not investing the $400 and being sorry means much more.
September 7th, 2006 at 1:57 am
I respecfully disagree with your statement. Here is why…
Okay, you invested your $400, and now you’ve recouped your investment, times 3. Let’s break that down and determine how much TIME you’ve invested and what is the value of that time? Is your time worth $10 an hour, $15? How about $20. How much time have you spent on this project and have you accounted for that time? Did your revenues generated cover the costs of your time? Meaning, did you make that time investment back? Because if you’re working on BurnLounge, then you can’t really be working on something else, right? Last time I checked, it’s pretty hard to do two jobs at the exact same time. Sure you can make a few bucks from BurnLounge, but if that’s not covering your hourly wage, then is it worth it?
Next, how often do you use your cellphone for business? How often do you use your computer? Your home phone, if you have one? A portion of your rent? Because you are self employed as a BurnLounger, are you making your money back to cover those costs. I mean, you can’t run your BurnLounge store as a homeless person on te street, without a roof over your head, a computer on your desk and a phone in your pocket. Are you making that money back? If so, how long did it take you to make that money back in MUSIC SALES. Not in MOGUL SIGN UPS.
I know you get, like, 50 bucks for every mogul you sign up. Sure, anyone can make up their investment if they get a few moguls to sign up, but let’s strip out the moguls and where are you in real music sales? Post your numbers here, I want to see them for myself.
And, let’s talk about the fact that there is only one place on the entire Burnlounge web site that tells its users the files do not play on “Macintosh Operating Systems.” That is misleading, because they should say that the files do not play on iPods. I’m sure there are many people who don’t read the fine print. Even if they do, I’m going to go out on a limb to say that the general belief is that “Macintosh” means the computer itself and not the iPod.
Okay, so you paid your mogul fee. The kids you got involved paid mogul fees and now you got your investment back. If it weren’t for their mogul fees, would you have made your investment back on the sales of downloads alone? Where’s the beef? Show me proof!
I don’t understand. If you’re a mogul and you take 2.5 cents from another mogul everytime he sells a track, are you saying that if that mogul signs up another mogul, then he/she takes 2.5 cents from that moguls sales? But then don’t you take a percentage of his percentage? He’s really not getting all the money, right? So, when does the long tail end? When do moguls run out of moguls? You can only go so far before you get to a group of people who don’t want to be BurnLoungers. That’s what happened to that MLM phone company that went out of business a few years back. At the long tail, the millions who aren’t as motivated affected the business of the hundreds that were. You can only keep people motivated for so long, then what do you do?
Another problem with BurnLounge is the fact that all customer support is done by email. Why? If BurnLounge is so huge, then take the phone call instead of doing it all by email. That, to me, is bad planning and can lead to confusion and horrible customer service. You have to be able to speak to your people to guide them.
The bottom line is not that it’s not for me. I considered it for a minute. Knowning the Internet business and what I would be up against without being able to advertise my BurnLounge site (according to the fine print, you can’t advertise your site anywhere), it is clear that the restrictions are onerous, the pennies only trickle in and the system won’t work with 70% of the music players in the marketplace. Taht’s why they are trying to diversify, because they know they can’t live on music alone. It’s a no win situation.
Your vision that Microsoft will get involved and millions will become BurnLoungers gives me the chills, because the history of MLM companies shows their is a plateau and then a crash, because many people at the long tail become disincentivized to participate, since they’re only making pennies from the moguls above them. I say PONZI…that’s my opinion.
You can’t keep millions motivated by pennies, it’s just not a business model that stands up over time. The money runs out my friend, then what? They who do you call? I believe in equal competition. With BurnLounge, the people at the top have the unfair advantage.
As far as my qualifications, my brother, I’ve been the CEO of a major Internet web site which I sold for over 3 Mil in 2000, managed the production of first-to-market Internet applications for major media companies, have been written about in major music industry trade publications, have been asked to sit on panels at major music conferences and am currently the VP of Music at Entertainment Media Works.
I’ve been in the music business for over 25-years professionally in various capacities starting out as a club DJ in Boston then achieving Billboard Dance Chart Reporter status while managing record labels and assisting in the careers of high profile artists. I’ve done more in the music business than most.
Some key music writers have described my contribution to online music as “pioneering.”
I have no idea what your background is, but I am more than qualified to speak about the scam you call BurnLounge, which is an apt name for a ponzi scheme that one day will fold like a house of cards.
That’s my professional opinion, which I stand by. With SnoCap launching their new service for artists to sell direct from their own sites and MySpace, BurnLounge is going to take a huge hit.
But, you know, my opinion doesn’t count for much. According to you, I don’t really know all that much about any of this
And, who reads Rolling Stone now anyway? US Weekly has surpassed Rolling Stone as the premier mag at Wenner Media. But you wouldn’t know that, of course, because your not involved as deeply in the industry as I.
BTW, I actually had a job interview at Rolling Stone a few months back and I turned it down, simply because they have no idea what they want to do online and they’re looking for someone to save them from the blogosphere. I’m not joining a sinking ship. I’d rather blog on my own than be told what to write about by a major media editor, where corporate shapes the message.
So, go ahead and diss my credentials, but let’s compare resumes and see who’s got more music industry experience. While you toil away selling music for pennies, I’m working with major and independent record labels on new revenue opportunities that will far surpass your singles sales.
Tony Z.
September 7th, 2006 at 3:02 pm
retailer store name or a zip code.
Know how many retailer store names I know? Zero. You know how many people in my zip code are carrying music I want? Zero.
I’m objective, but based on the fact I can’t even find a song that I want tells me all I need to know.
September 7th, 2006 at 3:03 pm
Have you ever tried to search for a song or artist on BurnLounge? Well you can’t.
YOu need to know a retailer store name or a zip code.
Know how many retailer store names I know? Zero. You know how many people in my zip code are carrying music I want? Zero.
I’m objective, but based on the fact I can’t even find a song that I want tells me all I need to know.
September 8th, 2006 at 9:57 am
Again Tony, you’ve just sat here and rehashed the same arguement over and over again. I undertstand and fully admitted, as have others, that merely selling the song or albums is not what is going to make you money. It’s building a business with others that share the same interests, and everyone else getting a piece of that interest.
If I own my own tanning salon, for arguements sake, and I start small, it’s going to take a while to generate enough $$ to make my money back, and then, taking into account your “what is your time worth” arguement, it might NEVER make that $$ back depending on what you think you are worth. It’s about doing what you LOVE.
If you are NOT interested in music, you will never do this. If you are not interested in downloading music, then you will not ever do this. If you are stuck in IPOD and refuse to look into anything else, then you will probably not do this. Those people are of little value to me or anyone else. Just like if I own a tanning salon, I’m not going to talk to someone who’s allergic to the sun, or just recovered from skin cancer.
My focus is on those people that are ALREADY downloading music, be it to an MP3 player, or the MILLIONS about MILLIONS that download to a PC and burn the CD’s to listen in a vehicle or home audio center.
Once you get that business going, and generate the interest, and people get it, then you get $$ back for the people you signed up, $$ from the people they signed up, and it goes on and on. Yeah, it’s similiar to a pyramid, except I’m not telling someone that they have to carry $100/month worth of beauty products to qualify for commissions. I’m telling them “Hey, if you are burning or downloading 15-20 songs per month, why not get paid to do it, and get your friends involved?”.
WOW. What a concept. Doing something you love, and selling that, and then getting paid for it. It’s amazing huh?
I could care less if it’s not for you, but saying or “informing” others that you think it’s a waste of time or not worth it, (and this is the key coming up here…drum roll please) WHEN YOU HAVE NOT EVEN BEEN A PART OF IT, is foolish.
Why would I buy a car from someone who has never driven in one? Why would I go see a movie or decide whether or not to see a movie if the reviewer only tells what he THINKS it might be like? The answer is, “I WOULD NOT” and Tony, neither would you. Yet, you find it useful to make recommendations and rip something that you learned about by sitting in a room and keeping your skeptics hat on.
If it’s not for you, it’s not, but my contention with you is that you said a statement that was laughable at best regarding “your democratic duty to inform” the public. That is laughable.
Oh, and finally, one point.
It took me all of 2 hours to sign 3 people up, 2 hours that I spent from 6-8pm at a university while they sat and ate what they had ordered. If you know what you are talking about, and can present it in a knowledgeable way, it is not difficult. It’s not a hard decision.
Hell, one of the guys that signed up under me signed up 5 others as well, 2 from a different level, and not only re-couped his investment, but had some $$ left over for “college stuff” (as he put it).
Now, this is JUST music we are talking about here. I’ll be laughing when my store is linked to the sales of MP3 players, video games and equipment, DVD’s, and concert tickets (oops, that has already happened). Those larger ticket items worth more, spread out over a network of stores, represents more $$ then merely the .5c or .2c downloads. Backed by the fact that famous people such as Hootie and the Blowfish, Avril Levine, Randy Travis, Rick Dees, and a few NASCAR drivers, are all on board and promote this concept and idea, I’ll take my chances.
Oops, I took me 10 minutes to write this response, so technically speaking, I probably threw about $8 out the window!
September 9th, 2006 at 4:34 pm
I was at a BL event and the concept didnt appeal to me as a business opertunity. The pyramid scheme model was a turn off. But, what was even more of a concern was, lets say there are 1000 sites with the same music offered. Why would anyone come to my site to download music of any format. If I build a network of fans, affiliates or moguls – Why would anyone come to my particular page to download music. It seems the way BL is making money is to sign up moguls. Not selling music. And that seems to be the argument of those who advocate this service. Its object is not to sell music, its to sign up moguls. (MOGULS! – LOL – making pennies per download – watch out Diddy) As a way for independent artists to sell there music its seems o.k., but I dont know what the deal is as far as the cost for seling your music through BL. You can do this through many sites such as TuneCore. Its less expensive to create your own website and promote through myspace, garage band, tight tunes, sound click I sound, numberonemusic, etc. etc…. Im also sure I-pod is greatfull for all the publicity their getting in this forum but they are not the first and only makers of mp3 players. So if I-pod has 70% of the market that doesnt leave 30% to non mp3 playing devices. There are many makers of these devices. So that makes the BL situation even harder for me to get into. Like one writer says, its just not for me. – Sean in RI, I respectfully dont believe you. I need more information if you please. When you sign someone up, how much of their initial sign up fee do you get?
September 10th, 2006 at 12:47 am
EBZAR:
That’s exactly what’s up.
BurnLounge believes it is offering the small business owner an opportunity to make money selling downloads, but they tell you in the fine print that you can’t advertise your store in any way outside their system. So, how are you supposed to generate revenues on downloads if you can’t advertise on a club flyer or a local entertainment section of the newspaper?
BurnLoungers selling mogul packages to other BurnLoungers is how these guys and girls and making money. Burnloungers say all these important people are involved, but what they don’t know is if those celebrities actually paid the mogul fee to BurnLounge, or did BurnLounge offer them a store for free just to use their name in the marketing effort.
According to Sean in RI, we should all sign up for BurnLounge not to “make money” but to “do what you love.”
So, that’s it! That’s the holy grail of the BurnLounge experience. Pay us $400 plus per year to have a BurnLounge presence, and just go out there and “do what you love.”
But that’s not what BurnLounge is selling. I was there, in a meeting. They are selling you on the idea that you can “make money” using the BurnLounge platform. I can sign up as an affiliate through Commission Junction for iTunes and make the same amount of money I would if I had a BurnLounge store. AND, I DON’T HAVE TO PAY A DIME.
Sure, I don’t have the right to use a custom-built Flash application using iTunes, but so what. I can still get the links and sell the song I want to from my web site, without having to pay x amount of dollars to use a platform that I can’t advertise or promote anywhere.
Or, as EBZAR suggests, Tune Core, and now Snocap if I’m selling my own songs.
I want to know how many BurnLoungers are making more than $500 per month in download fees? NOT in Mogul sign-up fees.
And, out of those BurnLoungers achieving that milestone, how many were in it at the beginning, how many in the middle, and how many just joined?
Of course, if you ask BurnLounge, they’re probably not going to tell you that info, so it’s left to speculation to figure it all out.
Now, I just found out that a BurnLounge rep is invited to speak at an upcoming Digital Media Wire Conference in LA. A respected organization such as DMW should do their research on BurnLounge before offering up a spot on a panel with companies who have earned the right to participate based on sound business practices, and not the house of cards BurnLounge is promoting.
EBZAR, I’ve heard that a BurnLounger makes a commission of $50 for every mogul he/she signs up.
And Sean even confirms it, that the money is made from signing up others and not as much is made selling actual music. He is more proud of signing up new BurnLoungers than he is of selling a few tracks here and there.
So, is Sean’s point that he’s making money selling downloads or is it that he’s making money signing up others, who then sign up others?
He also says that larger ticket items are now avail, but let’s find out how much a BurnLounger gets for selling a few tickets. Maybe a few bucks, but that’s all. Remember, you can only sell one concert or maybe even 5 dates from one artist, but Ticketmaster, the venue and scalpers were there long before BurnLounge. On hot events, BurnLoungers will be prevented from selling tix to sold out events, because others will have beat them to the process.
Sean says, I sat in that room with my mind made up. He doesn’t know because he wasn’t there. The night I sat in that room made me sick to my stomach, to hear the Chairman of BurnLounge rah rah everyone without telling the truth.
BurnLounge is a company that sells a PONZI scheme to others and won’t give them the answers they are looking for, unless you really read the fine print, and that’s even if you understand it.
I don’t like the company’s business practices, and I think if better thought out with a system where everyone plays on a level playing field, with no one mogul reaping the commissions off 20 others while other BurnLoungers have to work harder to sell, is an even and fair marketplace. But that’s not what BurnLounge is.
Tony Z.
September 10th, 2006 at 4:38 am
Thank you Tony for the info. So, Sean in RI says he tripled his money. Does that mean he signed up 24 moguls. (Moguls, I love that – you will be a MOGUL! lol) Sean must have very wealthy friends with money to blow doing what they love. Which is what? And if they are that wealthy they dont need BL to make money. Sorry Sean, your not helping.
September 10th, 2006 at 11:41 am
Sure, EBZAR. Since I attended that BurnLounge meeting last spring, I continue to be amazed at the snow eskimos will buy.
It’s a sad state of affairs in the course of human existence that people still fall for these types of MLM marketing programs.
I have deep reservations about it, mainly because of the way it’s set up. If everyone played on the same level playing field, and territories were carved out with boundaries that others respected, as well as meaningful marketing literature and support that all BurnLoungers had access to, including co-op marketing dollars, flyer support and other programs, then I’d be positive about it.
But the company misleads people into thinking they are going to make money selling downloads, when that’s just not the case. Even the ticket thing is bullshit. Excuse my language, but it is.
So, BurnLoungers get access to the same Ticketmaster feed as a hundred other web stores. But where do people go to get Tickets…well…Ticketmaster.com for one. Just because I have the right to sell a ticket through a BurnLounge store, doesn’t mean the ticket is going to be available to sell.
And, my BurnLounge shop isn’t going to have the same type of resources, for example, stadium seating charts, that a Ticketmaster has. So, how am I going to compete with Ticketmaster for that sale to get my piece.
Books…magazines…cd’s…please! I have books and mags posted here on this blog and no one is linking through me to get them, even though I drive a ton of traffic. They are going to go straight to Amazon or B&N. Why would they buy from someone who isn’t even a bookstore and has no experience selling books.
It’s just plain stupid, if you ask me. Here is Tower Records, going out of business, and they sell books and DVD’s and Tickets too. So, if Tower is going under, what makes some kid from Kansas think he’s going to compete with Amazon or Ticketmaster or iTunes.
The idea that you can become a “mogul” reeks of snake oil sales techniques. You are NOT GOING TO MAKE YOUR MONEY BACK ON DOWNLOAD SALES. By the time the market turns and the other 30% of your customer base is interested in buying from BurnLoungers, how many downloads are going to be generated by those 20K BurnLoungers? How much rev generated?
I’d rather invest 100K and open a pet store in a small neighborhood with a lot of pets and compete with Petco for market share, than try to open a download store and compete with Apple, Sony, Yahoo and MSN. People don’t want to have to drive 10 miles to a pet store, but they can certainly choose the major player instantaneously on the web.
This program makes me so sick to my stomach that I have to rail against it every chance I get.
Tony Z.
September 13th, 2006 at 8:44 am
Now that thats settled –
http://www.numberonemusic.com/datryfemc
Let us know what you think.
Thanks T.Z.
September 17th, 2006 at 10:11 am
Hi Tony,
Thanks for the info. I had the same bad gut feeling the first time I heard of Burnlounge.
A Friend has become involved and I worry…..
September 21st, 2006 at 9:05 am
More troubles for B.L. – Now with the launch of MicroSofts Zune MP3 player, challenging Apple’s I-Pod dominance, What will B.L. Do to make its service look appealing to its potential ‘MOGULS’?
September 21st, 2006 at 9:07 am
And tony – did you check out our music on N1M -I know your busy, but can you throw us a bone please. Have a listen – it wont hurt your ears. And I think we have more to offer than B.L. – We might even make you a ‘MOGUL’.
September 21st, 2006 at 7:15 pm
I’m wondering if Burnlounge will be able to distribute music in the new MS format? Correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe there are differences in the DRM scheme between the old Windows Media format and the new Zune format. If Burnlounger’s don’t have access to this format, then they’ll be left out of the Zune launch party. Plus, Microsoft is opening a store to integrate with the Zune, so that doesn’t bode well for Burnlounger’s either.
Additionally, what about the new company, SpiralFrog, that is going to give music away for free in exchange for the customer listening to advertising? AND, Myspace and SnoCap allowing bands to sell music from MySpace pages.
With Napster looking for a buyer, Real Networks solidly owning the subscription service alongside their partnership with the in-home wireless device, Sonos, the digital music market is getting really, really tight. I don’t see a company like BurnLounge surviving in this market. Their underlying business model is shaky, and you just can’t depend on 20,000 quesionably trained BurnLounger’s to save the company.
I’m sorry, I haven’t had the chance to check out N1M, but I promise I’ll do so soon. I’ve got a lot on my plate, but I’ll get to it!
No thanks, I already am a ‘Mogul.” LOL! Then again, according to some of the comments written here, I’m just a stupid blogger! HA!
September 22nd, 2006 at 9:37 am
Thanks for responding – about the MOGUL thing, Thats just my since of humer or lack there of. I checked your stats, you’re BIG PIMPIN’. Thats why I asked you to have a listen. I dont know if you like Rap, but I like to get the opinion of people who are not really into it. Thanks again and yes – I think B.L. would have been great 5 years (or even more) ago. That would have given it a chance to get some momentum. But its up against too much competition at a much better price. (Jamic – if i spelled anything incorrectly, Pard-in me.)
September 22nd, 2006 at 11:53 pm
Yo EBZAR:
I checked out your tracks. Yo…that shit is hot! Keep grindin, kid! Really well produced. I’m surprised you’re not out on a label right now, unless there’s something I don’t know.
I grew up on hip hop, but I predominantly spin house. I’ll give you props though, cause the beats are tight, the rhymes are on the money. I’m diggin it.
Keep up the good work!
I don’t know about my stats. Yeah, a few people check me out here. I been around for 10 years plus online, so I’ve built up a pretty good audience.
Netmix today, is a shell of it’s former self. Back in the day, I was doing a million uniques a year. Today, I’m just keeping it my little side hobby while I finish my degree at night at NYU and set up StarStyle.com music.
I love having a forum, that’s all. Just like you rhyme, I write. As a matter of fact, I’ve written some lyrics. Not as good as what you’ve got, but one day I might do something on the house tip with hip hop lyrics, kind of a spoken word type thing. At the big 4-0, I gotta represent for Gen X. If I try to front and wear a grill like Diddy, I’d be laughed out of the Apple.
Peace my brother,
Tony Z.
September 23rd, 2006 at 2:54 pm
Thanks T. – Were trying to do something different (Be relevant).
As far as the label thing, I shouldn’t discuss it in a public forum (AIM or email – I don’t know if you can see my email address.). I don’t want to piss people off before we get some kind of deal (or after). I keep it real but I don’t burn my bridges either. I’m also trying to build good relationships. I just hope people are thick skinned enough to handle the truth.
Right now were being shopped by some execs who think were good enough for them to at least bring our music into their meetings. So at least its not going straight into the garbage. I don’t know what happens after the meeting.
By the way – I’m not TRYFE. I’m Kev. (Manager, Producer, Engineer, Owner of creator of EBZAR, etc.) If you checked out the pictures – I’m dude with the braided hair. Also, I’m in the Bronx.
As far as house music, maybe you know of a friend of mine. Paul Simpson. He connected me to my REAL engineer. The engineer who did some mix’s for us is Tom Moulton. He is some what of a legend.
I will be looking for StarStyle
Peace my dude.
KEV / EBZAR
September 24th, 2006 at 4:41 am
I sent an email to info@netmix – Please, let me know when you get it.
Peace brother T.KEV / EBZAR
September 29th, 2006 at 1:15 pm
Tony – were going to try to get out to the MIDEM conferance theis January. Im sure you’ve heard of this event. What are your thoughts?
October 20th, 2006 at 2:35 am
WHY IS BURNLOUNGE WAY BETTER THAN iTunes? There are several reasons… (1) iTunes only allows us to be a customer. (2) BurnLounge payout better to artists who want to make a name for themselves. Will iTunes give you a 50% deal? Not a chance. (3) iTunes has about 1.7 million songs vs. BurnLounge’s close to 3,000,000. (4) Once again… and this deserves being mentioned twice… iTunes does not allow me to profit. PERIOD.
BurnLounge RULES!!!
http://www.ryanbaloy.com
October 20th, 2006 at 12:21 pm
My wife and I just joined in September been in the business about month and half and we have made all are money back in the first month and are next check this week will be 600+ dollars for a week. we have only had 5 people sign up directly under us but we have helped alot of people sign up under someone else and has helped out the team.
October 26th, 2006 at 4:31 pm
Question for Eric and Jen – Is that from downloads or from Signing up Moguls?
October 29th, 2006 at 11:28 pm
I just wanted to add that I am a retailer and I love Burnlounge and all that it stands for. I have been in the company just a few months and have already made a few thousand dollars which goes to prove that the entrepreneurial spirit in the United States of America is alive and well.
All I keep hearing are people putting down everyone that wants a chance to make it for themselves in this country of opportunity. My parents told me I was wasting my time. My friends didn’t understand why I would wast my time when the others had 70% of the market already.
But what they were looking at was the existing market and only one product. If I have learned anything in this country is Americans love opportunity and change. They like competition because it creates growth and betters the source of inventions. Good old R&D without it we just wither and fade. When Microsoft hit the market their computer crashed on the stage in front of their perspective customers and investors. They just kept going no matter the opinions of the others and now they rule.
IPODs needed a market to sell. Thus was created ITUNES. If you had said that digital downloads will never work then you probably would look pretty silly right now. If you had said that DVDs will never be popular you might consider a different train of thought today. And when BURNLOUNGE is the new BEST BUY, TOWER RECORDS, etc…..
Then we will know the truth. But for now it is all pure speculation. Or is it. Well not for me….
October 29th, 2006 at 11:45 pm
I think all of you are answering your own questions. Music downloads are just the beginning. Those of us that do not have our own albums are not going to make it rich from selling music from our own stores. We can, however sign up new talent that does. When they sell their music we get a commission. Best of all, we can sign as much talent as we want. And yes! we make money from signing other people, much like sales people from your companies that you work for get commissions for their efforts as well. The only difference is that everyone gets to benefit from a single persons efforts in Burnlounge.
I too have people in my group that have never done one minute of work in my company and I don’t know if they ever will. Unlike your company I can’t fire them. If you don’t work, your company can just fire you. But as long as they keep paying to stay in Burnlounge they will continue to make money in my team, since I will not let others decide my fate no matter how strongly they feel about theirs. So these people in my team get bonuses for my efforts. This is not a big issue since they have to reinvest to stay active and that is where I get compensated. They will never make as much as they could and they might even consider the company a failure. But if they would just put fourth a little effort and trust, the sky is the limit, not the chair that they are sitting in.
Mark
October 31st, 2006 at 4:36 pm
Mark:
I’m not against the concept of Burnlounge. What I am against is the business practices of hiding details in the fine print, the unavailability of a 1-800 number for customer support, and a whole host of other misleading business practices by Burnlounge.
What the readers want to know is, how much are you making from sign-ups as opposed to actual music sales?
So, you made “several thousand dollars.” Do you see that lasting over time? Especially given some of your members opting out but continuing to get hit in the wallet for something they’re not even promoting?
I think it’s disingenuous to take money from people who have decided not to work for Burnlounge. Maybe they thought that if they quit doing it, they wouldn’t be charged, but they still are. What kind of business tactics is that? Is there a montly cap for Burnloungers who have fallen out of the proverbial fold? If you don’t sell anything in 3 months, maybe your account should be frozen until you reacitivate it, instead of letting Burnlounge just keep billing your credit card to host a store that is inactive.
I think that’s despicable, but then again, it’s not my company.
Tony Z.
November 1st, 2006 at 8:05 pm
OK. This does not need to be posted. My husband ran into an old friend. This friend went on and on about the burnlounge. My husband was and is all excited about this project. He’s a music lover and the computer guy in the house. I am the Salesperson.
I agreed to support him so we paid $444.40 tier 3.
I wish I had read or seen your comments!!!!!
It sounds like the only way we can make money is to be in the music industry like a DJ, Radio personal, record producer, or be part of people making music.
WE ARE NOT!! I am in Real Estate sales, so this is why I thought I could sell people on the concept of buying into the Mogul concept. I have two sons in college and they are always burning music. Some of their freinds have unlimited bank accounts so I thought we could get them to buy into the tier program. ONLY after we joined did I get all the information. I am so mad and confused. How can I try to get my money back? If there isn’t a way then do you have any advise on how we can make money?
I doesn’t seem right that I only make $50 when I sign someone up as a mogul.
You can get a better return selling Premier Jewlery or Tupperware. I gues I thought this was the Tupperware for my generation (30ish).
Any advice on how to get a return or sites for us to get involved in a local Burnlounge group?
November 2nd, 2006 at 4:14 pm
Thank you Mark – At last someone is honest. Mark says “And yes! we make money from signing other people” . Also, “But as long as they keep paying to stay in Burnlounge…”. Thats crazy to me and sends up a red flag. Not the Red, White and Blue flag that keeps being waved when it comes to Burn Lounge. When did it become un-American to question something thats seems like its not such a great deal. I still have not heard of anyone who made money selling music. Also, again, the i-Pod is NOT the first or the ONLY mp3 player on the market. You have CREATIVE ZEN, DELL, EPSON, COWON, ARCOS, shit, my phone (treo650) plays mp3’s. Also every time a new Phone or PDA is introduced they throw in the factoid that it ‘ALSO PLAYS MP3s’. On just about every site I go on where you can down load music, guess what format they offer. This makes Burn Lounge look even less attractive. I went to a BL marketing presentation in April ‘07 – came across this blog in September – Its been going on since at least January – here it is November and the people who are supporting BL have done nothing to show how this is a good deal except to claim they made thousands of dollars. (oh, and call people dumb.)
November 2nd, 2006 at 4:29 pm
Sorry Jamic – the presentation was April 06′ – I know how you are with details (lol)
November 9th, 2006 at 1:26 am
I just signed up with Burnlounge today and also just found this site, and quite frankly from what I’m seeing in the way of negative responses here they’re apprently from people who just don’t understand MLM or didn’t look into it hard enough before turning over the credit card. With all the successful MLM companies out there today, to say it’s a bad deal for that reason alone is quite frankly ridiculous. MLM is not a “scheme”.
You make money for signing people up? GREAT!!! It’s a business!!! Signing people up is the direct effect of marketing – isn’t making money from your marketing efforts part of what every business is about? And you’re not just making the few cents per download thru your site, you’re also make override income from the downloads from sites in your downline, and quite frankly with the way the MLM structure is set up, your upline is helping to create your downline too. So what’s wrong with that???
What’s Napster paying you? What’s I-tunes paying you? How much does XYZ franchise seller reimburse you if the franchise they sold you fails? At least with a company like BurnLounge (or any other MLM), the people who signed you up have a direct financial incentive to help you succeed. Business involves risk, and this risk ain’t that much… Plus they’re on the way to being able to pump other products thru the pipeline, which of course means more potential profits for everyone. And if the people at the top benefit the most – FINE!!! They’re the ones who took the risks in the first place, not really different from any other company.
November 9th, 2006 at 8:16 am
What’s wrong with it? If you read this blog carefully, you won’t see people saying that Burnlounge is a “bad idea.” It’s a great idea, but the way it has been executed is terrible.
I-Tunes pays you about the same amount per download than you get from BurnLounge, and you don’t have to share it with anyone else. The only difference is, you don’t get your own burnlounge.com/yourname URL. But the upside is, over 75% of the market uses an iPod, where far less than that can download from a BurnLounge store.
My biggest problem with BurnLounge is that they come very close to walking the line between lying about this fact. In their user agreement, they say, “does not work with Apple Operating systems.”
Why can’t they just say, does not work with the iPod?
To me, that is clearly a violation of the public trust in your product.
My other problem with BurnLounge is that while people like you go out and sell BurnLounge stores to unsuspecting people who have no understanding of retail / downloadable music sales, where does that leave all the recording artists listed in BurnLounge stores. The goal then becomes, how many stores can I set up, NOT, how much music can I sell to the public and represent these recording artists to the best of my ability.
There’s a lot wrong with what you think there is nothing wrong with. Franchises are built on the premise that there is one central system that supports a number of individuals who have taken a risk. Those individuals are guaranteed a certain amount of space between stores, so that they are not sitting on top of each other, except in certain circumstances that have to be approved by the main office. You don’t see two McDonald’s directly next to each other, but with BurnLounge, 37 moguls can be working the same room at a nightclub. Who do you buy from? What about customer support? What if I want to return my downloads? What if it doesn’t work for me?
Many BurnLoungers have zero business experience, and once the MySpace/SnoCap partnership launches…you can say bye bye to BurnLounge, because artists won’t need the application anymore, since they can then turn to their MySpace page and sell their music where the community really is.
BurnLounge, to me, is a joke. That’s my opinion. While you go out and sell people on the kool-aid, look in the mirror and ask yourself, “am I doing the right thing?”
I stongly disagree with you, but I wish you could luck as you take other people’s money without giving them the support they need to succeed.
Tony Z.
November 9th, 2006 at 11:29 pm
You’re obviously entitled to your opinion, but this is why the arguments start. You don’t know me from Adam, yet you’re accusing me of “taking other people’s money without giving them the support they need to succeed”. This is based on what, our years of being neighbors??? Do you know me? And what is your definition of success?
I’ve been to 2 meetings total that were held by one of their bigger moguls. In both of those meetings it was brought up BY the presenter that you can’t download to an iPod – so MAYBE you went to the wrong meetings.
At the top of your response you said it’s a great idea, yet at the bottom you said it’s a joke – I don’t get that one. In any business there’s good and bad – so far the ones I’ve met have been completely out in the open. Maybe I’m just one of the lucky ones.
Regarding future potential, they’re bringing other products into the portfolio in the near future. So it won’t just rely upon music downloads. That’s called diversification.
Regarding competition – so what – market forces will decide when there are too many moguls out there. In the meantime I say let the adults decide on their own. While I’d agree that the growth potential isn’t as great for mogul #100,000 as it is for mogul #100, there are people who come into MLM programs years after they start and still make sizeable incomes. And that sir is no different than any other competitive situation. The strong always survive – that’s just business.
With all due respect, you obviously don’t really understand MLM. People don’t HAVE to buy makeup from Mary Kay, or ANYTHING from Amway/Quixtar, or supplements from Advocare etc. etc. – they just do, continually… The people in Burnlounge will continue to buy from Burnlounge because they’re involved with Burnlounge – it’s that simple.
There’s no kool aid drinking here, you’re just assuming there’s kool aid because you don’t agree with or maybe don’t completely understand certain aspects of it. If it was ***JUSTTTTT*** selling music downloads, I’d be right there with ya. But it’s simply not.
November 9th, 2006 at 11:53 pm
Okay, so they bring in tickets from Ticketmaster for Burnloungers to sell. My guess, and this is only a guess, is that Burnlounge only has access to a certain number of tickets from each venue per show, which limits the amount of tickets Burnloungers can sell. Now, after all the tix avail are gone, the splits are so low, does it make it worth it for BurnLoungers?
You’re argument that I don’t understand MLM is true. I don’t understand it, but it’s mainly in this case.
Mary Kay, I understand. You have a box of products, you go to someone’s house and you sell them on purchasing the products from you for a premium price, which make the split larger and you can make a decent living if you work hard. They get products from an individual who is initially trained in how to sell Mary Kay products, and that person is supported with marketing material and strong customer support.
BurnLoungers, on the other hand, have only digital music to sell for .05 cents a track, and only 25% of the houses can play your music. Now, you have Zune coming on the line from Microsoft, which won’t support “Plays For Sure”, and that is going to cannibalize the market even more.
Throw all the products you want in the mix, but there are larger companies who already are highly successful at selling these products. They’ve built trust and customer loyalty. I don’t see you being able to build trust in your customers without the business tools and money that it takes for you as an individual to support your customers.
Finally, the download market is softening for DRM downloadable music. Read any digital music news web site and you will see this. The more people you sign-up as mogul’s, the less people you have to actually buy music and the more competition between moguls in a marketplace, which may have an adverse affect and hurt Burnlounge, because they can’t control the marketing message of their thousand’s of sales outlets.
One of these days, it will all fall onto itself. I wish you luck. Sure, you can go out and sell people on becoming a BurnLounger, but can you actually sell music?
And, how come NO ONE has ever posted here a true accounting of how much they’ve made of off BurnLounge in download sales? Are people scared to do that? Why?
The only thing any one ever talks about is how much money they made selling mogulships, but never how much they are generating in music revenues, or how they are supporting recording artists with co-promotions, etc…
To me, this gimmick has no legs, and I’ll continue to criticize it until it goes quietly into the night.
Tony Z.
November 10th, 2006 at 1:16 am
Well, the time may come when you’re right – but I think you’re underestimating the power of multilevel marketing. For example, to keep it legit, part of staying in consistently of the pay structure is the requirement that there be $20 worth of downloads thru your site per month. That could be via people coming to your site, or you doing it yourself. Regardless, that’s a helluva lot of downloads. And remember, the downloads are generating commisisons thru the MLM structure too. So it’s not just the .05 per track.
Regarding trust, MLM has trust built right in because a lot of the people involved were brought in by people they already knew. Listen, I don’t love MLM by any means, but I do understand the benefits of getting into one in its early stages and have it succeed.
They also talked about adding movies, ibooks, tickets, ring tones and cell phones/calling plans and more in the not too distant future, some of which obviously would have a higher profit margin than music downloads. If it was just music downloads I would have not gotten involved. Would you have the same opinion if these other products were added?
November 10th, 2006 at 9:16 am
I understand that there are some multilevel marketing companies that do very well, but their products are generally hard, tangible goods that are differentiated somehow. I’ll use Mary Kay as an example, because that’s one that I’m familiar with.
With Mary Kay, you’re getting beauty products that are generally created by that company, with their own packaging and chemisty. It’s up to each sales rep to sell people on Mary Kay as a product that is different, better and at a price point they can afford over other cosmetics. And, it’s a social product, because women, who the products are mainly targeted to, can throw parties in their home and invite people over for an in-person demonstration.
With digital music, there’s nothing different about downloading it from BurnLounge, from iTunes or from MTV or from Zune, et al. The only difference is, the player you play it on.
The basic premise of MLM is to have a product that you can go out and sell that is “different” than other companies products, with a product line that is constantly evolving and growing, that gives people new incentives.
Yes, I see that BurnLounge will be adding new products to the mix. That, they have to do, because if they didn’t, they wouldn’t have a business.
Maybe it will be successful, and I hope for yours and every other BurnLoungers sake it is. But, the market for media sales is saturated on the web. Amazon and BN.com own books, the mobile phone market is already saturated with companies that buy time on the larger networks, like Helio, Boost Mobile, Virgin Mobile and Amp’d Mobile, many of which are all struggling to compete with their larger predecessors while spending multiple millions of dollars in marketing money.
Ringtones, hard to do over the web. People buy ring tones from their phones, not from web sites. Burnlounge would have to open up a shop on the wap deck on Cingular, Verizon and T-Mobile. I don’t see that happening anytime soon, because those carriers won’t allow it. And, BurnLounge may not have a license from the labels to sell ringtones, so they’ll have to get them from some third party, which then splits the revenues down even further.
Barry, the thing is, I work in digital media. And, I also study digital media at New York University’s School of Continuing Professional Studies. I see what BurnLoungers are up against every day, because I’m part of web 2.0 and am deeply involved in creating new business models for the web. I read so many newsletters and trades, I attend events and I talk to people in the music industry every day. I’ve also run my own web site, been around digital music since before the old Napster, and I try to research consumer behavior. I feel like I have a good command of, but am in no means an expert on these things.
Knowing what I know about business, if BurnLounge were to refocus their marketing into more of a social community of buying and trading music with friends, if they would be honest about the fact that you couldn’t play it on an iPod in their marketing material and on their web site (other than having someone tell you that at a meeting having been asked the question), and they would provide a 1-800 number for customer support from their web site…if they did those three things, I would back off and maybe even help them grow.
I can’t sit here and watch a company be disingenuous to its base of sales people by writing only “does not work with Apple operating systems” in the fine print. To me, that is WRONG! That is misleading.
Embrace what you CAN’T do and tell people it’s an ALTERNATIVE. Play up the fact that it doesn’t play on an iPod. Are you looking for a new way to have all your media in one place? Your music, your movies, your cell phone and your books, where you can share your world of media…that would be the place to start. Make it social baby…that’s what I want to see. Instead of moguls, open it up to everyone FOR FREE, and sell advertising around it.
Tony Z.
November 10th, 2006 at 10:04 am
Correct me if i’m wrong – in order to stay in BournLoung you have to make $20 worth of sales per month even if you have to make the purchases yourself? Wouldnt that sort of make me like a drug dealer that buys his own product. How do I make money in that situation? Also, Again, if its not in mp3 format I dont see a market for it. And, with Zune BurnLoung’s prospects look bleek at best. I was at the presentation in Manhaattan and they didnt mention anything about format.
November 10th, 2006 at 11:54 am
EBZAR:
MP3 is a hard beast to beat. However, I do buy tracks from Beatport because I know I’m getting quality MP3, and not something encoded by someone in their bedroom. So, you’re right, and there are many others who feel that there is a market for open MP3 format, instead of all these DRM’ed walled gardens.
Zune’s launch heavily impacts BurnLounge. And, the launch of MySpace/SnoCap partnership will also heavily impact BurnLounge, as artists will then be able to sell their music through their own myspace pages and web sites, doing away with their BurnLounge URL altogether.
In some respect, BurnLounge exists for bands to use their BurnLounge store to sell their own music. All that will wash away into the night when MySpace and SnoCap come online with their platform. That will take away a good chunk of BurnLounge’s users.
BurnLounge was a good idea in its essence, but they’ve made too many mistakes already to succeed. Viral marketing of downloadable music is a game that you need millions of dollars for and you have to compete with the players in the space. With Zune coming on board, they might take a small chunk out of iTunes, but people will be able to share their music (not sure if that’s really all that important) using the WiFi aspect of Zune, and if BurnLounge doesn’t offer that feature, then MS users will turn to Zune becuase its an MS-launched product with MS functionality and MS customer support.
Sorry BurnLounge…you’re just not MySpace, YouTube, Napster, Real Networks, MTV or Microsoft. Those are the companies that will win the MS side of the digital music revolution. Maybe you should have launched in San Francisco, where the real venture money is, because people out there would have guided you in a more concillatory and social direction, instead of this rah-rah, let’s all make money on the download revolution scheme that you’ve built so far.
Tony Z.
November 10th, 2006 at 8:37 pm
EBZAR – you’re over complicating it – it’s MLM, remember? So even if people are just buying the downloads themselves, they’re creating true sales volume for the people in the MLM structure, thereby creating commission checks. So my purchases will be creating income for the people above me, the purchases by the people below me will be creating income for those around them, for me and for those above me etc. This is why I said a few posts ago that regardless of who’s out there in the music download industry, BurnLoungers will continue to buy thru Burnlounge, because we’ll be making each other money. Get it? I understand that those who are JUST interested in buying music and not the business plan could wind up going elsewhere when new things come out, but lemme ask you this question – hypothetically, you’re a BurnLounger. You’re making money from the Burnloungers below you who are buying downloads for themselves for the same reason. Are you going to stop buying downloads from BurnLounge and give up the potentially huge downline commissions because ABC music download company is offering a better deal elsewhere, a place where you WON’T get paid by them? THAT’s the point – it’s not just the .05 “from yourself”, not even close.
November 11th, 2006 at 7:17 am
I disagree, I think I simplified it. Also, the question was asked previously, Why would anyone come to my site to purchase downloads and not the hundreds of people around or over me. And I believe it will all be moot when artists start launching their own sites where people can buy music (I’m surprised that has not happened on a larger scale yet). Do you think it will be long before labels themselves start sites and offer their catalogues. The same way these large studios, large music (Tower Rec.) and video (BlockBusters) stores are shutting down its going to get harder for sites like B.L. to get a foot hold especially if the product is proprietary. If i cant play it on what i have then fuck that. Im not going to buy more shit. It has to be convenient. I thank the rock community for showing indie artists how building your own studio is far more feesable than pooring money into a large studio. And, technology for making it affordable. If after putting $400+ dollars down I have to keep buying music to stay in and get 100 people to buy into Mogul-ships and they have to make sales or buy music themselves in order for me to make money…… (lol) your right – its too complicated for my feeble brain. I have to pass. At this point in order for me to purchase a download from B.L. it would have to be from an artist im really feeling and their music isnt available anywhere else. It just doesn’t seem worth the trouble.
November 11th, 2006 at 9:24 pm
Keep in mind that I’m only doing this for informational purposes – I’m not trying to sign you up.
I’m tellin ya, you’re not getting it. Maybe this’ll help… Using your example – if you did sign up 100 people, at a BARE minimum you would have already made $5000 on your initial $400+ investment. I say bare because the people you signed up would be signing up people too and you’d also make money from their efforts. It would likely be much higher than that. People above you would also be placing people in your downline too. Anyone knowlewdgeable in the MLM industry would know that if you yourself signed 100 people, then having a total of 200 people in your downline would be a horrible, probably impossible return. Even 500 would be low. So, we’ll use 200. Out of the 100 more people your downline and upline recruited, you could make upwards of another $5000 if 50 were on one side of you and 50 on the other. So this $10,000 is before a single download has happened. THEN there’s the downloads being purchased from those below you. 200 people spending $20 per month to maintain their spots and their points. 200 X $20 = $4000 in group volume per month. If you were only getting 5% of that amount in group commissions, that’s $200 per month in your pocket. 10%, $400 per month. Are you telling me that you’d go somewhere else to download your music and that you wouldn’t spend $20 per month to keep the $400 coming? There are probably people involved who have thousands of people in their downlines already. You show me someone who won’t spend $20 to make $400, I’ll show you someone who needs to be smacked. How about $20 just to make $100? How about $20 to make $5000. IT’S MULTI LEVEL!!! The people below you are not doing it to just make money for you – everybody’s working to make money for everybody. Every person at the current “bottom” has the people above them helping them make money too, just like every other MLM plan out there.
If what you guys are saying regarding these soon to be super download places killing Burnlounge had any chance of being accurate, then that same premise would mean that Wal Mart and Best Buy and Comp USA and every other big box retailer would have destroyed Amway/Quixtar years ago. Instead Amway is the biggest MLM program in the world.
Maybe it now makes more sense. If not, then maybe you’re just not MLM fans and don’t understand the power of it.
November 12th, 2006 at 1:40 am
Ahhhhh…I love when people say, you can make $5K!!!!! Woohooo!
Okay my man, let’s break that $5K down, after taxes, costs, hours worked, etc…etc… Let’s get real, my friend. $5K isn’t what you think it is. Somehow, you forgot to mention that’s pre-tax; then there’s your costs, for example rent and cell phone, and the fact that it would take you an extraordinary amount of time–akin to a full-time job–to make that 5K.
Okay, let’s use your math here and see how much a Burnlounger signing up 100 people can make per hour. Basically, if you want to break down the opportunity into dollars and cents, if a Burnlounger makes $5K signing up 100 users, how much is he/she really taking home?
$5K at reasonably average 28% Federal Tax ends up being $3,600. That’s not including state or city tax. Let’s say, it takes you on average, 5-hours of conversations with a potential BurnLounger to get them to spend the $400+ sign up fee. 5 hours x 100 sign-ups is 500 hours, divide that by $3,600 and you get $7.20 an hour.
For arguments sake, let’s say you average 2-hours a sale. That’s $18 per hour. You’re doing better, but 200 hours is 25, 8-hour days. You would have to work 25, 8-hour days to make $3,600, factor in minus your 400+, and your $240 per year buy-in to keep it going if you’re not generating $20 a month in sales.
Doesn’t sound to me like it’s a cash cow. I’d do better working at Starbucks, maybe? Not that there’s anything wrong with Starbucks. They sell good music and the even offer health insurance for PART-TIMER’s! There’s no health insurance with BurnLounge. Oh right, sorry, I almost forgot. Let’s also factor in your health insurance at $300 a month, if you don’t have a full-time job. That brings your take down even more. What about your cost of living? Food, clothing, child care? That $5K you can make anywhere, at half the resistance and you don’t have to sell.
Sales jobs are inherently risky, but the rewards should be much more than your average working salary of $60K a year, that’s if you sign appoximately 100 people a month.
My girlfriend just said to me, as we were talking about this, how many people realistically will spend $400+ dollars, plus the $240 a year to become moguls? There are only so many. Once that number is maxed out, then new-signups slow to a trickle. Once these people figure out that you can’t make much more than you could working a day job at the local Honda dealer or being a bartender at a restaurant or nightclub (which is hard work but more fun!), why would you want to kill yourself selling all day when it’s easier to just get a steady job.
Okay, so you’re a BurnLounger with a real day job, and you have BurnLounge on the side? Are you realistically going to spend the abovementioned amount of time to sign up 100 people to mogulships in a month?
And, is that the point of BurnLounge? To make everyone a mogul, buying their own music from each other? Shoot, I buy music from iTunes and on my iPod, it works for me, and I don’t have to pay anyone to get involved. I can join LinkShare, sign-up for the iTunes affiliate program, and sell all the music I want without paying anyone a dime.
Granted, I don’t have the technology to make it all integrated like BurnLounge offers, but at least I can do it from my own web site, how I want, when I want, and I have 75% of the digital music player market to market to.
Oh…one more thing. What about your costs? How much does it cost you per sub to sign up a mogul? What about cell phone, drinks, dinners, gifts? To be a salesman, you gotta treat people right. There goes more of your profit out the window.
You can’t compare BurnLounge to Amway. First, Amway is or was a much better run organization, and the profit margins are completely different. Music is a commodity you can get just about anywhere. Amway products are Amway’s. And, I think if you work for Amway, you’d get your own little slice of territory. You wouldn’t have to compete with every Tom, Dick and Harry in the same vicinity. Correct me if I’m wrong, but I think that may be the case. Plus, the profit margines on products are much better.
Your job is to sell products. Sure, if you bring people in along the way, then you get to share in their sales. But, to me, this whole BurnLounge things is about selling mogulships, and somwhere, people forgot that there are real artists and musicians watching all this going on. They are going to sour on this sooner, rather than later, because they will realize, it’s not about them, it’s about the MLM and how much BurnLounge can sucker people out of before it’s too late.
Snocap / MySpace is going to kill BurnLounge. Same for Zune, and of course iTunes.
Sorry Barry, the game your spinning isn’t worth the BurnLounge code it’s delivered on. I’d get out or you’re going to be losing money, just like the many disappointed one’s who have posted here in the past.
November 13th, 2006 at 1:13 am
You JUST DON’T GET IT, BECAUSE YOU DON’T UNDERSTAND MLM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Your “100 a month” comments clearly demonstrate that. You’re looking at one little piece of a huge pie. Lemme put it this way – the guy who presented it to me last week opened up his online statement, he’s up over $4000 per week now after just a few months working it. The guy who signed him up is at about $12,000 per week, and he started working it just a few months before him. I saw the live statements. These guys are working no harder now than they were a few months ago, but their downlines are growing fast and therefore so are their paychecks. And I’d bet that neither of these guys have personally signed up even 40-50 people TOTAL each. Now they’re out there helping their downlines do the same thing, WHICH IS WHAT MLM IS ALL ABOUT! So someone who did sign up “100 people” would almost most defintiely get to the same point and then much further pretty damn fast. It’s like you’re going out of your way to nitpick every little negative thing you can find or think of in your effort to talk yourself out of it via not understanding it.
I’m really not trying to insult you, so please don’t take it as such – but you TRULY, TRULY don’t know MLM, and apparently neither does your girlfriend. In a relatively new MLM program like this one, someone who was able to personally sign up even 20 people per month and just help the people they’re signing up to just do a fraction of that has a pretty damn good chance of become a millionaire within a couple of years. That’s just the way MLM is. It’s always been that way, and it allways will be that way. And regarding there being “just so many people”, you’re right. This is going to expand into other countries – that number of people can be a million – Amway has way more than that. There are many people in this country who are multi millionaires thru MLM who are working no harder at it now than they were years ago when they started whichever one they’re in. The only difference is that instead of working to sign up people on their own, they’re helping their downlines do what they did. For that and that alone, you cannot beat MLM.
And also, a big part of Amway’s pitch is that you can buy the things you buy every day, but instead of going to the store and making the store money, you can just do it thru them and build a sales organization to do the same.
I’m 43, my comprehensive health insurance is $114 per month. At $300, you must live in NY.
My man, you just don’t understand the overall picture. It ain’t just about downloads, and it ain’t just about a single person signing up moguls. As in every other MLM program out there, it’s about the masses working with the masses. And the people who get into MLM’s toward the beginning and happen to be in ones that make it, those people tend to become wealthy. Burnlounge has nothing cornered in that respect – they’re just doing what many other successful MLM programs have done. And I don’t know of another MLM program out there that’s capitalizing on the digital age. THAT’S why I’m in this one.
November 13th, 2006 at 12:26 pm
The more you speak Barry, the more I smell PYRAMID. BurnLoungs’ primary function is not to sell music. Your praising signing MOGULS more than downloading music. Im gambling on people to keep putting money up to stay in and not on the public buying music and on MOGULS signing up MOGULS. All I can think of is the poor dude on the bottom whos is running into people who are not interested or are already signed up.
Im the first to wish you well – There is a sucker born every minute. I may have been born yesterday, but I stayed up all night.
Good luck. For all involved I wish them well.
Just dont laugh at me too hard when you wiz by in your foreign toys.
November 13th, 2006 at 6:09 pm
So again, you don’t understand MLM. In any newer MLM program there’s going to be an emphasis on signing up distributors. There’s nothing new there. Lemme ask you this question – if the products are digital music, movies, e-books, phones, concert tickets and more, are you going to still consider it a pyramid? And my guess is that even if it stayed at just music downloads, I seriously doubt that the artists will feel offended that their music was only purchased to satisfy a bunch of purchase requirements.
Oh, and in every MLM there’s a bottom, so nothing new there either. If all you can think of is “the poor dude at the bottom who can’t sign anyone up”, then maybe your negativity toward MLM in general is playing a part in your opinion too. You’re confusing “sucker” with “someone who just doesn’t understand the power of MLM”. Amway has been growing for how many years now?
November 13th, 2006 at 6:55 pm
It doesn’t matter what the products are. What matters, is the reputation and honesty of the organization setting up the MLM, and the realistic profits that can be expected from SALES of those items and not from sign-ups of additional distributors.
Artists would feel offended that their music is only being purchased by those who hope to gain from the sale of mogul-ships, than the sale of their music. The reason, you ask? Because then their music does not get heard by anyone, and there’s a false sense of commerce. Record labels plan marketing campaigns around sales in a given territory. If those sales are inflated, than that’s a key metric that can mean the difference between profit and loss and who their target audience is for a given locale.
Inflating the number of downloads sold because you need your own people to buy music in order to stay in the game is HIGHLY MISLEADING! If you tell me that it’s not, then you know nothing about the music industry, which brings me to my second point.
Now you’ve got all these people who know nothing about the music industry running all these online shops, with little in the form of customer service. There is no 800 number listed (last time I checked) on the Burnlounge.com web site.
What are you suppoed to call if something goes wrong, you want you money back, etc…
I don’t know, I just don’t think it’s too well though out. If it were me, the whole thing would have been set up completely different.
We’ll see what happens.
November 14th, 2006 at 1:16 am
I watched one of the online presentations today, and actually the presenter partially agrees with you that there are things that need to be addressed, and that they will be. They refer to the current version as 1.0. It ain’t perfect, but I think their analogy is a good one – that neither was AOL 1.0
I don’t see how it’s misleading when you’re told right up front that it’s expected. But that’s my opinion. I spoke to 2 people today who are in bands, they seemed to be OK with it, especially since I told them that they can submit their own music for free and it’ll be included in the Burnlounge playlist with everyone else. In the Burnlounge sites, the owners can organize things the way they want.
At least I’m not referred to as a koolaid drinker anymore – at least not at the moment.
November 14th, 2006 at 11:32 am
I have not yet watched the online presentation. I will do so and hopefully not get sick to my stomach in the process.
So, now there is some admission that things aren’t perfect and that they need to be addressed. But, what will be addressed and what won’t be addressed is all up to speculation at this point.
I would like to see BurnLounge clearly state that the music downloaded from the web site does not work on an iPod or now, a Zune. That must be clearly stated to anyone who wants to invest in becoming a mogul.
The next thing I would like them to do is set up a 1-800 number for customer service for both BurnLounge Moguls and consumers.
And, I would like to see them drop the $20 a month sales requirement, because this artificially inflates sales, misleading investors, the record industry and artists on the so called power of BurnLounge.
Lastly, I would like them to clearly explain the sales splits on their web site, from all products. Let’s be transparent here. How much do the labels get, how much does Loudeye get, how much do they get, and then how are those revenues split downling in the rev share between moguls.
You can’t hide these facts forever. If you choose to have your own, internal sales force, sure, it’s proprietary information. But, when you start working with 20,000 to 30,000 people, that’s different. You need to be more transparent.
Oh, and one other thing, get rid of the rah rah, techno-laden sales pitch. I think it’s overhype and oversell and its what got them to this point in the first place. Now that the blogosphere has weighed in and written about the company, these people need to read what’s being written about them and take some action, or we are going to continue to criticize the company for its ethically challenged business practices.
November 14th, 2006 at 9:35 pm
You’re speaking your opinion, which you’re entitled to of course. The rah rah you’re referring to is part of every sales force in the country in one form or another.
The $20 per month, you know, that thing that everyone who signs up is told about before they voluntarily sign up, firstly creates sales commissions for all parties involved, and secondly gives the program the legal legitimacy it needs to be able to continue as an MLM program. There isn’t a single misleading thing about the monthly requirement. How is it artificially inflating sales when money IS actually being paid? Ok, so it’s either coming from someone who’s just a customer, or it’s coming from a Burnlounger – is the money different? Different currency? No, it’s MONEY PAID.
Like I said, these things are your opinion and choice, and apparently there are thousands of people in the country who are OK with it. And make no mistake – it’s gonna keep growing. That will mean more incomes generated, therefore more music purchased, and when additional products are brought into it, God knows what it’ll turn into. You’ll see.
November 14th, 2006 at 9:59 pm
Barry,
My point is, that the $20 per month is mandatory and not voluntary. This means that even if I don’t want to buy music, I have to, to keep my store open, in the case that I hadn’t sold any music that month. Tell me, how does this not artificially inflate sales? If you don’t think that’s the case, then surely you have little understanding of the music industry and how music is tracked.
Everyone knows that in the past, record labels sent boxes of CD’s for free to mom and pop record stores that reported to SoundScan in order to pump up sales for a given artist. By forcing BurnLoungers to prop up their stores by buying music they may not have intended to purchase, artificially inflates the bottom line for BurnLounge. It misleads investors that consumers are actually purchasing music, unless BurnLounge breaks out stats on BurnLounger sales to themselves as opposed to music purchased by legitimate customers.
If I were an investor in BurnLounge, I’d want to know, how many new people are buying music as opposed to BurnLoungers themselves.
Why should I be forced to buy music I might not want, just to keep my store open? After a while, I may have all the music I want and don’t want any more, but I have to buy it if I didn’t have any sales that month.
In my heart of hearts, I believe this is an unethical way of doing business. My company doesn’t ask me to buy its products to stay employed there, so why should BurnLoungers, after paying in the $400+ upfront fee, be charged $20 a month and get music. I think, they should just be charged the $20 to use the technology, and no music changes hands. That way, there is no misleading stat on sales.
Wall Street or potential suitors are not going to look kindly on a company that claims music sales of X, but in reality, much of the music sold is being purchased by a BurnLounger through his/her own account.
See…all you seem to care about Barry, is the money. If that’s the your church, then by all means speak your gospel. But, where I come from money isn’t everything. Ethics and moral responsibility go a long way in this country. To be ethical in business and be successful is much better, in my opinion, then being misleading and greedy.
Now, as you suggest, thousands of people in this country are “OK with it.” That’s your opinion, not fact. And, if they all really knew the bottom line truth, would they, after all is said and done, “be OK with it.”
We don’t know, but my bet says they’d be concerned that they are being misled. Not by the fact that they are buying their own music, but the whole iTunes thing. When I was at the BurnLounge even in NYC, that fact was NOT even brought up. And some BurnLoungers are even saying that there’s some kind of plug-in that Apple created, which I don’t believe is true. When they can’t even control their own people from spreading potentially false rumors, this is a company that I think was truly not prepared for the problems that it has created for itself.
November 15th, 2006 at 2:40 am
You say they “have to spend $20 per month whether they want to or not”. There’s just no logic to that. IT’S ALL VOLUNTARY! EVERYONE who signs up knows right at the beginning that the requirement exists. How are they being “forced” to spend the $20 per month when they voluntarily signed up in the first place? You make it look like people have guns put to their heads forcing them to become Burnloungers. We’re doing this as a business opportunity, not just the social experience.
Show me ONE MLM program that doesn’t have some sort of ongoing purchase or sales requirement to be able to continue making commissions. One. That’s what they ALL do. That’s how they continue to exist. You said something about misleading and greedy. HOW??? AS PEOPLE ARE PAYING THEIR $20 PER MONTH, THE ENTIRE GROUP IS MAKING MONEY OFF OF EACH OTHER IN THE PROCESS!!! IT’S MLM, REMEMBER??? Are you this pessimistic about everything? Maybe you’re just baiting me – it just doesn’t make sense that you have such a not-understanding about how this works. And Wall Street – do you really think Wall Street cares whether the sales are coming from personal purchases or sales to customers? Then you don’t understand Wall Street either. There’s nothing unethical about this because we know exactly what we’re doing here.
So in summary, we all know what we got into when we turned over the credit card, we all know that the monthly requirement exists, so we’re all voluntarily in it. We’re not being “forced” to do anything. I keep saying it because you keep showing it, you just don’t understand multi level marketing. Fact of the matter is that the $20 per month requirement is extremely reasonable as compared to every other MLM program I’ve seen in the last several years. $50-$70 in product per month is a lot more common. We’re all making money off of those voluntary monthly $20 purchases (oh wait, the poor people at the current very very bottom aren’t yet, so the whole program stinks, right? But they’ll be making money soon too, because we’re helping them bring people in also – just like every other MLM program out there).
November 15th, 2006 at 6:36 am
Barry,
You are missing the point. In my comment, I said, why don’t they just charge $20 a month to use the technology, instead of $20 a month and you get the prerequisite amount of songs?
My point is this: the artificial inflation of sales of music can be a detriment, not a benefit to a lot of people. If you understand the music business, and put aside your MLM arguments for a minute, you’ll see my point a little clearer.
If people want to spend that $20 a month to run their store–like rent–to me, tht’s fine. I pay $200 and at times $250, depdending on bandwidth, to Live365.com to run my online radio station every month. That money is split between Live365 and some goes to ASCAP and BMI to pay the artists that I play on the station. What I program has no bearing on what I pay to Live365. The subsequent playlist that is generated can potentially HELP labels understand what records are being played and why, without a cash payment affecting the outcome. This can help them in their marketing efforts, so they can decide to target their efforts accordingly instead of wondering what the real truth is in sales or spins of their music. One thing affects the other. So, if BurnLoungers keep selling all this music to each other and it’s not being sold to listen to it, but just as a way to prop up the MLM, then that to me is the wrong reason to be in the business of selling music.
With BurnLounge, if all BurnLoungers HAVE TO BUY MUSIC each month to keep their stores open, these are sales that, on average, probably would NOT have happened otherwise. In my opinion, this artifically inflates the sales numbers at BurnLounge and makes the company do better than it would if it did not have that requirment.
Wall Street would look at this as an inherent risk, not a benefit, because the artificial inflation of sales for the purpose of propping up the MLM can backfire on itself when people tire of paying the money. If I’m an investor, I want to invest in a company that can sell things to the public, not to my own employees, because that pool can only grow so much before it starts to decline, given the $400 + entry fee and $20 a month that it costs to keep involved. For that money, I can just buy an iPod Shuffle and SAVE money every month, instead of giving MORE to BurnLounge to prop up the MLM.
There are going to be labels who think, “gee, I’m doing so well on BurnLounge,” when the reality is, people are buying tracks not to listen to them, but simply just because they have to, to keep in the game.
What does this do? It deflates the artistic merit of the music that’s being sold, undermines music sales altogether and continues to keep music so cheap, that it’s now just a commodity, instead of a valued piece of art.
If this is all about making money to you, then good luck. I’m about quality over quantity. I’m about adhering to some kind of responsibility to the marketplace. I’m about trying to maintain artistic integrity while making a profit. That’s the path I’ve chosen in life.
Do I download music for free? I have, but I also support dance music by buying all my mix show tracks from Beatport.com. I think I’ve spent about $300 to $400 dollars so far. But I can write that off as a cost of doing business, where most people can’t. So I have that inhernet advantage.
Most of the tracks I’ve downloaded that are classic club tracks aren’t even available online right now, so you’re forced to get them for free. But I see the value in buying them again for a reasonable price, because they are encoded correctly and I get them at a higher bitrate, a lot faster than I would find them through a p2p.
That being said, I’m not going to preach here that I’m so perfect, because I’m not. At the end of the day though, I still call for BurnLounge to be more open about its business practices on its web site, instead of saying things like “does not work with Apple operating systems.”
Say what you really mean…DOES NOT WORK WITH THE 70 MILLION IPODS OUT THERE IN THE MARKETPLACE TODAY. Say, you have to BUY $20 worht of music A MONTH to stay in the game, EVEN IF YOU DON’T REALLY WANT IT OR NEED IT. And tell the record labels, that’s what you’re doing, so they know not to take the sales numbers as seriously as they do with iTunes or other services.
iTunes sells to the public. Those are real sales figures that, although may not be 100% accurate, are probably numbers I can trust better than sales figures for BurnLounge, knowing what I know today. What would I rather plot my artist marketing campaign around? iTunes first, BurnLounge last.
November 15th, 2006 at 12:53 pm
To answer your question, they probably can’t point the money toward the technology, there has to be a product to be legal. And the music is the first of what will be many products.
As you said, it’s a matter of different opinions, and I think you’re wrong. Sales are sales. The moguls are doing it with the full understanding that they’re making each other money. If you’re telling me that you wouldn’t GLADLY continue to spend that $20 to make multitudes of that amount back, then why are we even discussing this with each other…
I know what you’re saying regarding the artistic side of it, but they’re not just in it for the social experience either. When you can show me that they’re turning down the checks that come from this company, then I’ll agree with you. My guess is given the option, they’ll take the money. And the big, tycoon music companies, do you REALLY think they’ll look down on a company that’s got people all over the country, and soon the world, buying music where they maybe weren’t before? REALLY??? So, they don’t want the already thousands of credit card holding new customers?
Believe it, don’t believe it – whatever, but I really think that this will get to the point where there are 1,000,000 moguls in it. I wouldn’t be surprised AT ALL if there were 250,000 by this time next year. Now do the theoretical math – 250,000 moguls spending a minimum of $20 per month on music. That’s $5 million per month in music sales, or $60 million per year, on a newer company. In one year of growing. And you think Wall Street will look down on it? Bottom line, what’s it worth Wall Street? Now let’s get lofty and say it reaches 1 million, (because deep down, you know it can) – that’s $240 MILLION in annual sales by a company that has no hard inventory to warehouse and had to spend almost NO money on advertising because the straight commision, 1099 independent contractor moguls are doing it all for them. And the moguls are motivated to keep it going because they’re making money in the process. And the problem is ——-???????????????????
November 15th, 2006 at 5:18 pm
Okay…here’s a question for you. Once all the BurnLoungers buy the hot tracks, what’s then left to buy? After a few months, the number of available tracks will trickle. Since BurnLounge only has the rights to, maybe, 3 million tracks at best (not sure).
So, after all these BurnLoungers buy their tracks initially, all of a sudden…poof! The tide shifts to new tracks, which may not satisfy the demand, and then you have people dropping out, because why spend $20 bucks on stuff you’re not going to listen to. Nor can you resell it, like you could CD’s.
See, my friend, the thing that bothers me the most about these conversations is the fact that, all you seem to care about, is making money. You don’t seem to really care about the product itself. You don’t care about the artists, you don’t care about the people in these jobs, you just want to sell, sell, sell to anyone that comes your way.
Have you ever worked in a record store? Do you have a passion for music, or is this just a money making proposition for you? Because, the record stores that do well are the ones that serve their customers, that know what their customers are searching for, that differntiate themselves. BurnLounge…it’s no different at the the end of the day from anyone else trying to make a buck off of people that can’t see the forest from the trees.
Now, you’re talking about $5 Million a month in revenues. With all those people downloading music, bandwidth costs are going to increase. You’ll need customer service reps to handle all the inquiries, you’ll have all kinds of additional costs when you’re doing that much traffic. Right now, you’re at 20K to 30k BurnLoungers. This is the number I’ve been hearing bandied about, but it could be quite inaccurate.
Having run Internet companies, I know the costs associated with scaling up, and bro…$5 Mil a month gets chewed up pretty quick when you have to serve 250,000 people. (That’s if they ever reach that many people). After splitting all the revenues, there’s not much left, at the end of the day. So, they diversify into other products. Big deal. Let’s see them compete with Amazon on books…ha! That’s laughable. Let’s see them compete with Ticketmaster on tix, that’s even funnier.
See, that’s another thing. Half the BurnLoungers you talk to, know absolutely nothing about business. Better yet, they have no clue as to the costs of doing business. From the legal costs, to rent, bandwidth, content licensing, etc…, there is more than meets the eye. Also, you’re talking international. Do you know the costs involved going overseas. If they don’t understand how to do business here, what makes you think they are going to be successful in China, if China even lets them do business in China.
So, your number don’t impress me, they only make me feel sad for the people who are burning so much cash, for something that might be abandoned sooner, rather than later.
November 16th, 2006 at 12:41 am
What can I say, you just don’t understand it, and I apparently cannot come up with the right way to get you to. It’s like I say one thing, and you respond in another. I claim that 1 + 1 = 2, and you say it’s actually green, not red.
I can say a million times that other products are going to be introduced, and you cannot get away from whether I care about the artists or not (the ones who will be getting paid, as we’ve already discussed). And by the way, I was at a meeting tonite where 2 poeple were saying the same EXACT things you’ve been about the MLM part and the not caring about the music part and the “forced” $20 per month part, and after I explained it to them the SAME way I have to you, they understood. So I dunno what to tell ya. You must just not be meant to get it.
You brush off the ticket part because you absolutely refuse to grasp the fact that if the ticket prices come in at the same as what Ticket Master charges, that there’s NO WAY that people will buy anywhere but thru their own sites because they’re GENERATING COMMISSIONS FOR EACH OTHER TONY!!! Ticket Master will feel a major sting it this gets real big and tickets are offered thru it. Fine, don’t believe me.
Feel free to stay in the passion of the guy in the record store thing you said, you obviously don’t care much about making any kind of big money in the music business, which is fine of course – I’d rather look at it from the standpoint of the people who run the record company who also understand the financial potential of the business. It doesn’t make you right, and it doesn’t make me wrong – it just makes a difference in opinion and desires.
November 16th, 2006 at 10:03 am
Barry:
Believe me, I totally understand. My friend, I work in the digital music industry as VP of Music at StarStyle.com. And, I study Digital Communications and Media at the night program at NYU. I’m not blind, my friend. I see the financial potential, but I also understand the business AND legal issues around what BurnLounge claims to be doing. You, being on the outside looking in, probably do not have a clear understanding of the costs invloved running a digital music service.
I think you forget that after payroll, taxes, legal, hosting and streaming fees (bandwidth), licensing payments to LoudEye to carry the titles, revenue splits, customer service, product development costs and other incrementals, when you BurnLoungers talk about making all this money, there’s no realism. You’re like George Bush saying we’re gonna win this war and stay the course, when reality says something else, because you don’t want to look at the situation on the ground.
It’s not me that doesn’t understand the dynamics and profit structure of the business, it’s all you BurnLoungers who throw these half-assed multi-million dollar numbers around without being realistic. That, my friend, is fraud.
If you tell me BurnLounge can make $5 Million a month, but then leave out the fact that there are the inherent costs of doing business, you’re not telling the whole story.
So, go get yourself a business background, then come back to me and argue numbers.
Let’s address your ticketing service through BurnLounge. First, BurnLounge is PARTNERING with Ticketmaster. Do you really think that Ticketmaster is going to give BurnLoungers first crack at certain blocks of tix? And, half the time, Tix are sold out for most shows within hours from phone orders, people waiting on the street, and Ticketmaster itself. I think that there will be many people who will be frustrated and unable to purchase tix through BurnLounge, unless certain blocks per show are reserved and farmed out to BurnLounge stores.
Now, my friend, if there are only 6,000 seats avail for a show, and there are 500 BurnLoungers in a market that sell 500 pairs, that’s 1,000 tix on one night split by 500 BurnLoungers. I don’t see serious revenues being generated. There are a lot less tickets available than there is music.
To me, you’re just hyping another feature of BurnLounge that you think it going to make you rich. What about all your costs of marketing? Your cell phone? Your connection to the web? Any marketing materials that you create? Drinks you buy for other people? Dinners? There are costs of doing business, my friend, that you don’t want to seem to address?
Why not?
Because, maybe you just don’t get it. Money flows in, and money flows out. Maybe it’s you who doesn’t understand how to make money, not me.
And yes, I will stay in the passion of the guy in the record store, because at least he knew something about the artists he loved and sold to the stores customers, who came to him for advice and to learn, and not to just hand over their money with little to show for it.
To your final comment, you seem to have no clue as to how the record business works, so if you think you’re looking at it from a label perspective, maybe you should visit a label one day and ask them what they think. Yes, they want to sell records, but artists are also concerned about WHO buys their music, because music should also help them sell tickets and merchandise. There is much MORE to the music business than just selling CDs to everyone you can. You want to make sure you sell them to the right people, to get the buzz going, so you can capture the long tail of music discovery. I don’t want people buying my music that are just going to sit on it. That’s not going to develop any fan loyalty and build my business. Sure it puts money in my pocket initially, but how long will that last? Additionally, what if people then only buy what’s on the homepages of BurnLoungers sites when they need to make that 20 purchase? All the other artists in the database lose because there’s no incentive to look for them. That means, only the top artists win, giving major labels more money, and killing the indy artist.
Finally, I think SnoCap MySpace will destroy the BurnLounge model. That’s my bet. Can’t wait til it happens.
Tony
November 16th, 2006 at 4:07 pm
When thse other products are introduced – will B.L.s have to buy them as well to stay in. – If ten people worked in a record store (call them 1 – 10). what if in order to get the job they had to pay $400 dollars. and in order to stay employed there they hade to buy $20 dollars of music a month. At the end of each month the will share the money that is generated. #1 will get the money at the end of month 1, #2 gets the money at the end of month 2 and so on. Or in the case if B.L. – we split a percentage of the money we make at the end of the month or whatever time period they put on getting paid. PYRIMAD!
Again I simplified. At the same time im convincine people I meet to pay $400 to work in the store and buy $20 dollars of music per month.
I think this is a very clever juk. They are creating Frankenstein monsters. These people are a combination of sellers and buyers. They sell to themselves.
Brilliant!
November 16th, 2006 at 11:42 pm
You continue to not get it, which baffles me.
There are no plans to make the monthly obligation be higher than $20, regardless if the products introduced.
We don’t HAVE to pay anything – we WANT to because we’re making each other money – it’s that simple.
November 18th, 2006 at 2:10 am
I’ve been reading this thread for three days now in my spare time (from the very beginning to the most recent exchange.) I know a little about music because I worked for a record label for two years. I also know one the early investors in BL. So I’m somewhat informed. Personally I don’t think the model holds but that’s just my opinion.
What just dawned on me with the $20 per mo. music purchasing thing… it reminds me an awful lot of the dot com bubble when two sites or telecom companies would exchange services and instead of accounting for them properly, they’d both add the gross number to their revenue lines.
BL’s (Barry in particular) seem to be saying “who cares as long as we’re all making commissions?” The problem is that the company isn’t generating any real sales. They’ve got a subscription plan for people that want to run around and tell everyone else how rich they’re going to be in a year.
Further, all of these media people that are involved… which are the ones that made a killing by identifying great investments? Does anyone know what kind of consideration they were given for the use of their names? Not a single one of the “moguls” are equity owners. They own absolutely nothing here. If BL were to close its doors, they’d all be completely SOL. Some of these celebs were likely given equity for free. If BL closes, whatever is left, the equity holders will get a cut.
Cadillac and Pepsi: Yeah you recognize their names. Any idea what their advertising budgets are for a year? How many places they put their logos? Did they even pay? Cadillac probably put up an Escalade for a contest and in exchange got free advertising on BL for a year. What do you think an Escalade costs? 60k? Wow! Huge spend for Cadillac there, eh? That definitely validates BL. If BL closes up, Caddy probably gets their Escalade back.
On a side note, I’ve been looking at a content company that has an exclusive distribution deal with itunes. They are the sole supplier of their niche content to the ITMS. The exclusivity runs through 2010. Even with this kind of competitive advantage… I STILL don’t know if it’s a good investment. Without that 70%, it’s an ugly space to compete in. No one in their right mind that owns an iPod would buy from BL. It’s as simple as that and it was my very first argument against making the investment in BL when I saw the B-Plan.
Do the math… it’s not pretty for the challengers. On the hardware side, it’s virtually impossible to compete with the iPod because Apple has scale. On the software side, a company has to compete with the combined interfaces of the iPod and iTunes. The only thing left to compete on is features. Unfortunately there aren’t many “features” the iPod is lacking. DRM-crippled wireless sharing doesn’t really qualify in my book as a deal-making “feature” (referring to the Zune). That being said Microsoft (as is their way) will dump 10s if not 100s of millions into marketing for the Zune and their new store. Now there are two 800-lb gorillas in the space.
To the people that think they could be the next Seymour Stein or Chris Blackwell, I have only one question. Why would an unsigned band whore themselves out to you on BL rather than just sign themselves up? Why BL instead of MySpace? I think this was alluded to but MySpace plans on rolling out an ecommerce system that allows unsigned talent to monetize their work. It could easily be the death knell for Indie labels. What drives great content (and this is something that Tony is clearly aware of and the BL’s are seriously lacking) is passion.
Everyone thinks Music and Movies (Entertainment in general) is sexy. Everyone wants to be in the business. What so few understand is its a BRUTAL business. Especially so since Napster. It’s virtually IMPOSSIBLE to make money. The people that stick it out in this game are the ones with a passion for quality content. Period. Every major is running around trying to figure out how to put the genie back in the bottle. Of course you can’t, but that fact doesn’t help margins for anyone. BL (along with all the rest of the content providers) is essentially competeing with FREE product. Margins will continue to erode until some of this capacity dissapears. The only one that is even close is Apple because of their scale.
You can talk line extensions all you want but I doubt any of this ever goes anywhere. If BL were doing that well they would be shouting their milestones from the rooftops. All I’ve heard is people don’t like them and they spent a lot of money on a Grammy party that no one even knows they threw.
(Seems to have turned into a rant somewhere in the middle, sorry bout that.) Best of luck to all of you that are involved!
November 18th, 2006 at 3:00 pm
Macstibs:
Thanks for your insightful commentary.
I agree with what you said about “people that think they could be the next Seymour Stein or Chris Blackwell.” I’ve lived my life in and around the music business since I purchased my first 12″, “Ain’t No Stoppin Us Now” by McFadden and Whitehead, from Strawberries Records and Tapes on Memorial Drive in Cambridge, MA in 1979. It takes an incredible amount of passion, energy and commitment to succeed in this business.
Having literally put my blood, sweat and tears into my career, I always find it fascinating for newcomers who jump into the music industry who think they are going to become millionaires overnight.
Granted, it’s the rare talent or idea that comes along that shakes up the industry, and those who control it first, are usually, far and away, the leaders for years to follow. Those strangleholds can be broken, i.e. Apple (downloads), Best Buy (music as a loss leader), etc.., but it’s few and far between.
For anyone who thinks that BurnLounge is the holy grail of music services, they’re either to naive or simply just too inexperienced to know the differnce between a legitmate record retailer and a company that is perpetuating the inevitable flameout.
I’m glad you brought up the point about two companies booking revenue against each other. I had said that in so many words in a previous post about BurnLoungers buying from each other. With a limited offering, after the number of BurnLoungers who are Moguls have purchased all the music they need, then what? What happens next? What’s left to buy for $20 a month? And, how many people in this country have $600+ a year to spend on donwloadable music? The concept hits an invetiable wall once you run out of people who can afford to get in, or people who even care to get in (not everyone in this country cares about music).
Whenever I talk to someone, they’ve usually spent about $50 to $100 this year on downloads. That’s an informal survey, but it’s indicative of what’s going on in downloading overall. There are still a large number of people purchasing CD’s. Downloading legally has not yet reached a tipping point.
The music business is BRUTAL. You should see what I go through everyday. Labels want your licensing money, but there aren’t enough people to service your account. I try to reach out to label marketing reps all the time. They only have enough people to handle projects with the major portals, and they’re not paying any attention to the “long tail,” despite the popularity of Wired Editor, Chris Anderson’s recent book that tells them that’s where the action can be as well.
People forget that once you get into the business of music, then other people must purchase that music in order for you to survive. There is a huge risk involved, because not every song appeals to every person. And, the hits today sell a lot less out front, than they did in the past.
I think the recent Diddy release did somewhere in the 150K range first week. That’s down a few from his highest first week seller, which was 180K or so. And he probably spent more this time in marketing to sell a little bit less.
Another thing BurnLoungers forget is that you must market your BurnLounge site. So, you start to incur costs. Sure the top guys are getting PAID, cause they got in first. But the bottom feeders? They’re gonna turn on you when the going gets tough, and how do you keep them happy?
The other point I agree with you on are all these celebrity moguls. No one knows the terms of the deals they structured with these celebs to use their names. Like you, I think they just gave away BurnLounge stores to the celebs to get them involved, so they could use their names in their marketing literatue. It’s a cheap ploy that anyone can see right through…oh wait…almost anyone, sorry. There are a few BurnLoungers out there who think these celebrtity tie-ins are the confirmation that their is gold in’dem’dar hills, boyeeee!
November 18th, 2006 at 7:15 pm
How those actually familliar with MLM understand this so easily, yet those not familliar with it try so hard not to truly baffles me.
I feel like I’m going to repeating the is for like the 1 millionth time, but what the hell, there’s nothing on TV at the monent. Maybe this millionth attempt will sink in –
1. This is MULTI LEVEL MARKETING, WHICH MEANS WE ALL HAVE PEOPLE IN OUR DOWNLINES – We do NOT have to compete for “the same customers” as Tony states. If I download something thru my own site, people 6 levels above me benefit financially. If the people up to 6 levels below me download something, it benefits all the way up to me. SO, by us simply downloading on our own, we’re AUTOMATICALLY creating income streams. Tony, please tell me how may more times I’ll have to esssplain that before you realize that what I’m saying makes absolute sense? Because if it’s 10 more times, maybe I’ll do it all in one post. There’s no magic here, it’s Introductory MLM 101.
2. Tony, let me repeat, again – we’re not just making money from the music downloads, if that were the case, I’d be agreeing with you 1,000%, (not 100%, but an actual 1,000%). After my first 9 days in this I’ve made $350 in commissions because of the people that I brought in, AND because of the people who came in who were placed below me by the people above me. My credit card statement for my $444 or whatever won’t be here for 2-3 more weeks and I’ve almost recouped my initial investment back already. And as EVERY OTHER MLM OUT THERE, this growth will begin to multiply. You obviously don’t know the system or you wouldn’t be saying the things you’re saying. The people who understand the basic concepts of MLM could care less what iPod’s doing, or what MySpace is doing, because they’re not paying us to download anything, and they’re not giving us credits for downloading from our own sites. AGAIN – IT’S NOT JUST ABOUT HAVING PEOPLE COME TO OUR SITES TO DOWNLOAD MUSIC –
AND AGAIN – IT’S NOT JUST ABOUT HAVING PEOPLE COME TO OUR SITES TO DOWNLOAD MUSIC –
AND AGAIN – IT’S NOT JUST ABOUT HAVING PEOPLE COME TO OUR SITES TO DOWNLOAD MUSIC –
AND AGAIN – IT’S NOT JUST ABOUT HAVING PEOPLE COME TO OUR SITES TO DOWNLOAD MUSIC –
AND AGAIN…………………………………….
2. And as I’ve also said about a million times, RIGHT NOW it’s just music, but they’re working to expand into movies, ringtones, cell phones, concert tickets, games, ebooks and more. So your thing about people running out of things to download holds ZERO water. Yes, Zero.
3. Tony, I read your earlier posts regarding the margins getting smaller and smaller the deeper it goes till the people who are X number of levels down are fighting for crumbs or whatever you said – COMPLETELY INACCURATE – and again demonstrates that you don’t understand how MLM works. The download/product purchase part of this program goes 6 levels deep, something I’m pretty sure I’ve already stated. So if the people up to 6 levels below me are just doing the $20 minimum, and someone on what would be my 7th level downloads $1000 per month, I get no benefit from that person because he’s beyond my 6th. But the people directly below me would. And speaking of MLM 101, that 6 levels of people can literally become thousands of people. Let’s say that over the course of the 6 levels that the commissions balance out to 10% per level – that means that no matter how many people come in, and no matter how wide and deep it gets, that a total of 60% of the amounts spent on downloads wil be paid out in commisions. That still leaves 40% left over for expenses and royalties and whatever – THE EXACT SAME WAY THAT PRACTICALLY EVERY OTHER SUCCESSFUL MLM PROGRAM OUT THERE HAS DONE IT FOR HOW MANY YEARS NOW…
So please, stop with the running out of buyers and running of things to download already. As your initial posts very clearly demonstrate, you do NOT understand the program, and you do not really understand MLM. How can you so vehemently defend your positions regarding this program when you so obviously don’t understand it? Tony you don’t understand it. I know you think you do, but you don’t.
As those of us versed in MLM realize, there is nothing, I repeat NOTHING that this company is doing from the MLM standpoint that’s putting it at financial risk, and I’m sure I’ll continue to see criticisms from those who don’t kow the system. So maybe I’ll keep on trying to talk sense into those who have opinions that are based on inaccuracies.
November 19th, 2006 at 12:23 pm
Barry:
Okay, so you made $350 back from people signing up over the last three weeks. But, your initial investment is not $444. It’s more than that.
How much time did you spend with each person. Remember, the value of time to money. How many cell phone calls did you make? Deduct the amount of time you were on your phone from your monthly bill.
Now that you are in business for yourself, what would you say a portion of your rent and the amount of time you are using your computer to do BurnLounge work? You have to add depreciation of your equipment.
Barry, I may not fully understand MLM, but I do understand business. At this point, you think you’re close to breaking even, but you still haven’t built in your costs of doing business. Did you spend any time in the car? Any money on gas? When you went to your first BurnLounge event, did you buy drinks? If you think about it that way, you might even be down more money than you think, lol.
Another thing you might want to go back and read is that I wasn’t totally against the program if they took certain steps, like clearly stating that people can’t use an iPod to play the files and clearly define terrirtories for BurnLoungers so there aren’t 60 in a nightclub trying to sell the same person on being a BurnLounger. I also don’t know if you’ve read the fine print, but you can’t create your own marketing materials either.
So, whether I understand the program or not (I could never keep track of who’s upline and downline and all that entails), the fact remains that your focus in on selling future BurnLoungers a $444 mogulship + $20 a month in fees and not on buying music or anything else from you for that matter.
Here’s my point, and listen carefully….
Why in the world would I want to spend $444 + $20 a month for a program that allows me to buy music, tickets and books when I can do all of that for free through all the web sites that I participate in.
On the sales side, with Amazon’s new E-Shop, which I’ve integrated into my web site on the Netmix homepage, I don’t have to pay anything to Amazon and I only split my commissions with Amazon, and no one else.
With my iTunes Linkshare program, I can sell all the tracks I want through through Apple/Linkshare without having to pay a dime, and I get the $.05 cents a track without having to share revenues with anyone upstream or downstream.
So, for $444 + $20 a month, basically, I’m renting out the technology that BurnLounge has created for me to not have to build it myself. I agree, there is an advantage in being able to partner with someone to use the technology, but if Amazon can build it for free, why can’t BurnLounge? Because the whole business is predicated on selling Mogul-ships, and not products.
Now, when you’re splitting $.05 cents downline with 6 people, you have to sell a lot of downloads to make any money.
You seem hell bent on telling everyone about the upside that you think is inherent, but you’re not saying anything about the downside. Why not? There’s a downside in everything we do. There’s a huge downside for me keeping this blog and streaming my mix shows. It’s costing me about $230 a month plus $30 a month or so in downloads from Beatport.com. I choose to do it with the intent that I can start selling advertising around my shows and site that will cover those costs, and the costs of my broadband connection, phone and time invested in doing this.
I’ll have to share a piece of my ad revenues with the banner ad network and Google, but the difference is, I don’t have to PAY ANYTHING to get in with Burst! or Google. They let me use their technology, then they go out and sell the ads. I don’t have to do a thing but drive traffic and keep the site updated, which is what I should be doing. I’m sharing my revenues because they are out there working to sell the advertising, NOT the potential that one day the advertisers can benefit from something if other web sites start using them, but with no traffic to speak of yet.
The difference between you and I are, I’m providing something no one else can do but me. You’re doing something 20K to 30K other people are doing, with the same songs, same tickets, same everything. And, it seems, as if no one cares about selling tickets or music, they all want to sell BurnLounge mogulships, because of the $50 commission on new sign-ups.
You’re not selling music, you’re selling the dream that someone with enough drive and motivation can use the BurnLounge tool to sell that dream to someone else, and so on and so on. You’re not building an audience of repeate customers, you’re building a vat of salespeople intent on selling more salespeople on selling more salespeople. After a while, the pool of people that will be interested in this, or can afford it, will dry up.
You fail to realize that, in the grand scheme of things, this idea is appealing to only so many people. The pool will dry up. All ideas hit a peak and then have to play in the long tail. When BurnLounge first launched, sign-ups went through the roof. All those people who were interested early got in. Now, they have to go out and sell other people, those are the second level. Then, the second level have to reach out to a third level, while competing with the first level. Then the third level have to compete with the first and second level. Pretty soon, the pickings start to get slim, because if everyone wanted to be in the music business, then we’d have millions of people in it already.
The music business is not for everyone. How many law school students will drop what they’re doing and invest in being a BurnLounger? How many doctors? How many bankers? How many financial analysts? How many Wall Street types?
Let’s not forget that this is a country of immigrants. What about all the people who don’t speak English and want music from around the world, that BurnLounge doesn’t have in their store?
Barry, there are only so many people who are going to be interested in this idea, and when the faucet turns to a trickle, like it did for Excel in the ealy 90’s, then we’ll talk.
What you keep wanted to do, is spread the gospel that this idea will grow like wildfire and everyone will benefit upstream, or whatever, but you don’t even know your market. 5 mogul sign-ups does not a business make. Go sign-up 10,000 people. Let me know what you’ve spent to do just that.
Business is built on spending money to make money. If you can honestly tell me that you’re going to go out there and get a couple of hundred people to sign-up for BurnLounge at ZERO cost to you, besides your sign-up fee, I’ll call you a liar, because no one can sell something without at least investing time, and that’s not free, at least not to me. Then, there’s the other costs involved, including cell phone, rent, computer fees, marketing, etc…
Build all that in Barry, then let me know what you really made.
Tony Z.
November 19th, 2006 at 6:08 pm
Hmmm…. does BL even still exist?
Why does a google search for BL only return a page full of links to a war of words on the BL business model? Shouldn’t there be links to pages of BL members shouting the virtues of joining BL? Strangely absent…
Why does the BL site not respond to any of my clicks on any of the links?
Is this a moot discussion? Is BL already burned out?
November 19th, 2006 at 7:38 pm
Yes, BurnLounge exists at http://www.burnlounge.com. Google search results are weighted towards any web site that uses the word BurnLounge legitimately in discussion. Illegitimately would mean that someone hid the word BurnLounge in white text on their homepage 1,000 times.
What’s probably happening is you’re finding links to the tens of site’s who have posted commentary about BurnLounge’s business model, and the arguments against.
I’ve looked through a number of these sites and there’s always a BurnLounger that will post a pro-BurnLounge comment. You just have to look hard for them.
Tony
November 20th, 2006 at 12:53 am
Tony Tony Tony Tony – you’ve never done a single MLM program in your life, have you? So much of this would make sense to you if you simply understood how it works.
I also own a business and yes I understand the value of time, so let me answer you this way. Because I just started this (and I think I said 9 days ago, not a few weeks as you said I said), the risk/reward ratio is in its infancy. But BECAUSE IT’S MLM, there are people who are not that much over me who came in maybe 3 weeks before I did who spent no more time doing this last week than I did, but they made a couple of thousand, maybe more. And BECAUSE IT’S MLM, next week their efforts, while spending no more than they did last week, will probably mean a check that’s even higher because their downline is growing. And the next week it’ll likely be higher, and so on. Have I mentioned like 100 times that’s how MLM works? I met a guy last week whose check was about $25000 FOR THE WEEK.
It’s ironic that you brought the value of time aspect into this, mainly because the conversation I had just tonite –
Just like the attorney I met with tonite who is going to join in the morning, he said that while up front he’d be losing money thru not billing as much thru his legal practice while he’s talking to people about this, the time spent is like an investment to him, because he’s aware that as his downline grows, so will the income he makes from it, which, mention number 101, is how MLM works. He knows a ton of poeple in several cities, and some of those cities have hardly any reps there so the growth potential for the people in those cities is huge, so the time it takes to meet with them and get them up and running will pay big dividends in the future.
You wanna talk about successful people joining? I know people who own large, successful businesses who are coming in because they see the potential for it, and they’re bringing people in with them. I’m talking about people who own large car dealerships and mortgage companies and jewelery stores and partners in law firms. I must say I’m surprised that they’re doing it, but again this is the infancy of the digital age and it’s just going to keep expanding, and as you’re already aware, this will go beyond just music. And they want to be part of it.
Regarding your comments about bottoming out, you’re right, it could happen. Of course it still hasn’t happened with Amway/Quixtar yet, and how many years have they been around? 30? More? How many millions of reps do THEY have? Hell, aren’t there still people MLMing Kirby Vacuum cleaners!!! And contrary to what I think it was you who said some posts ago, Amway’s not offering anything that people can’t go to Wal Mart to buy. If anything, going to Wal Mart would probably be easier. Matter of fact that’s part of their pitch – why create a profit for the store owners by buying from them when you can create a business network of people and generate profits thru each other? They’ve created networks of people who are buying products and they’re making money thru the MLM aspect of it so they keep coming back for more. I’ve asked you this question before and you’ve never once answered it – would you not spend $20 per month downloading from Burnlounge if you knew that it would mean getting a check from them for even $100? What happens if the check is 10 or 20 times that amount? Tony, if you don’t understand MLM, then you don’t know how to answer. There are people in Amway today who are making millions of dollars per year simply because it’s MLM and the network below them has grown to be huge over the years. And with the digital age expanding the way it is, there’s no reason to think that it can’t happen here too.
If buying concert tickets thru your Burnlounge site earned you free VIP passes to said concerts, would you buy from Burnlounge, or would you still buy from Ticket Master if the prices were the same? Sorry, what’d you say?
If downloading from your Burnlounge earned you something on the order of mileage credits, would you still go to Napster or whoever if the prices were the same?
Gimme a break with the non-English speaking people thing. What if Martians come to earth who don’t have ears and only communicate thru super sensory perception? I may as well bail now, right?
And by the way, if this gets licensed to be marketed overseas, now there are literally millions of more people who are going to hear about it.
I’m just going to keep telling you over and over and over again – you do not understand MLM.
November 20th, 2006 at 3:00 pm
I’m going to keep telling you over and over again that you know nothing about consumer demand for entertainment products in the marketplace today.
Granted, your passion and enthusiasm to protect your investment is admirable, and I appreciate your belief in BurnLounge, but you sill haven’t addressed any of my points with a believable and factual answer.
Who are all these people you speak about making thousands? Who are all these car dealers and finanical people? Let’s see their BurnLounge statements posted to a web site, so we can all see how it works.
As to whether I would purchase files from BurnLounge for $20 a month if I could get checks for $100 a month in return. That’s only if I bought a BurnLounge mogulship and went out and sold other people on buying them. I have to do more than just buy music to get that check. Me, I have enough to do and am not willing to do that. I would also have to trust in or hope that the people I sold to buy their $20 a month. And they may end up cancelling or having some other problem that would prevent me from collecting monies due.
Here’s the other problem: I own an iPod and a Mac. I don’t need to download from BurnLounge. As a matter of fact, I don’t download much from iTunes either. I use Beatport for my dance tracks, because the other service don’t, won’t or can’t carry that music.
There are clear differences between Amway and BurnLounge. First, people need home products, they don’t necessarily need music. And, the margins on Amway products are probably much greater than the margins on music.
It’s not that I don’t understand MLM as much as you think I don’t, it’s that I don’t believe in some of the business practices of BurnLounge. But you still haven’t addressed those issues that I’ve pointed out in my past writings.
As far as everyone buying concert tickets and books from each other instead of from Amazon or Ticketmaster, the margins are so slim and the competition to buy those items from other companies is so real, that to scale the business beyond 20K to 50K to 100K, the number of people who get in, I think, will be problematic.
You can talk about licensing overseas, but obviously, you don’t know much about licensing. You’d have to pay to play in every market you enter. The costs would be enormous.
Anyway…thanks for all your enthusiasm, but you really don’t want to see anything but your own investment grow. That’s what I take from all your musings. I don’t see anything related to caring about music or understanding music marketing. All I hear you talk about is how much money you can make. That, my friend, will be your downfall. Just my opinion.
Tony Z.
November 20th, 2006 at 9:07 pm
I’m gonna put this in here first because I think you just skim thru my postings without reading everything, so this way you won’t miss it –
http://www.soundtaxi.info – so much for the iPod issue……..
I respond to everything you say, you’re apparently just not fully reading it.
Who are these people? They’re people I know personally and have for some time. Why don’t they show their statements? That’s their business, but I can say that in the near future I’ll be posting mine, showing the weekly progression.
I DO understand the demand for consumer products, but you DON’T understand how that demand translates to MLM. You think people are buying their soap from Amway because they need soap? Tony that ain’t it – they’re buying their soap from Amway because they’ve turned buying their soap from Amway into a business by getting others to do the same. And this will work the same way.
Is it JUST about the music for me? No, it’s not. It’s about the obvious growth of the digital age and taking advantage of an opportunity to become an integral part of it vs. just staying a customer and letting some big corporation make the money. And as I’ve said here over and over again, there will be more products available, and every time something new gets introduced it will open up to a whole new segment of the market in this country. Just wait and see.
November 21st, 2006 at 12:56 pm
SounTaxi.info…nice. Let’s go out and tell music fans to first, buy your iPod. Then, sign-up as a BurnLounge mogul for $444 + $20 a month. And then, go to SoundTaxi.info to spend $14.95 to convert your files. And after that, spend all your time figuring out which files you want to download, which one’s you need to convert, and use iTunes to play them on your desktop anyway, since it the program is free.
That’s how I want to spend my Sunday afternoons, playing with technology that should just download and work. But no, you’re saying I should go and do something else to get my files to work on my computer and iPod.
How about this? I just go out and get a $79 iPod Shuffle, I download the same music from iTunes I can get on BurnLounge, and just walk away happy as a bee!
Of course, you’ll argue…what are you doing giving money to that big fat Apple Corp. and padding their bottom line?
My response would be that BurnLounge is a corporation too. They’re in it for the same reason Apple is. At least they provide a technology solution while BurnLounge is just ridingon the coattails of the digital revolution.
Finally, there are more people that buy soap then music, and Amway doesn’t sell just soap. People need soap. People want music. There’s a huge difference in the demand for soap over music. I don’t see how your argument is relative.
I don’t know much about Amway, but I’m sure there are some things that clearly differentiate the company from BurnLounge.
Finally, if you want to take advantage of the digital age, then go create something new and exciting on your own, instead of riding the coattails of some company who don’t provide the appropriate level of customer support, who hide details in the fine print, and who have set up this pyramid with the intention of selling moguls and not music.
A big corporation is taking your money. When a company incorporates, they then become a corporation, with the intent of making a profit. What’s so different from BurnLounge then from Apple or Microsoft when it comes down to the legal papers?
Say BurnLounge begins to make $100 Million a year. Then what? Is it not a profitable corporation? So, what do you do? Are you going to quit? Don’t give that BS about giving money to “the man.” We all work for corporations, big and small. And, they are all in it to profit from you, me and everyone else for that matter. Here, you are saying you want to make money, but yet you can’t see giving money to big corporations. Well, let’s find out who some of the investors are in BurnLounge, and find out who you’re giving money to.
You want to become part of the digital revolution, then devote your life to it, like I did. I’m not going to get into my contribution, but it’s pretty obvious if you look hard enough. I’ve been doing this for 12-years. You, a few months. I wish you the best of luck if you think that you’re investment is going to make you wealthy. I’m not so sure it is.
Me, I’ve invested in myself by going to school and living the school of hard knocks. I’ve learned that there’s no easy path, and there are always obstacles in your way. You’re on the outside looking in. Me, I’m on the inside looking out. You want to get in because you missed the boat the first time around. Well, look hard enough, and you’re still on the shore, while I’m out at sea, waving to you!
Tony Z.
November 21st, 2006 at 10:00 pm
Ya know, I KNEW you would take a negative tone to my last post. But that’s just how some people are. You seem to not be able to only focus on the negative side of whatever’s said regarding this.
Of course Burnlounge wants to make money, just like Apple does. But what the companies like Burnlounge understand is that, or should I say companies that have the brains and common business sense to create an MLM structure so as to get thousands (or maybe millions) of independent contractor distributors working on their behalf, is that even if they pay the majority of the commisions back to the field force, they’ll still make TONS of profits. If and when Burnlounge is making $100 million per year, it’ll be because it’s moguls are making MUCH more. And granted, some will makeing scraps while others make tons, but that’s just the way it is in any business. This is not a get rich quick by any means, there will be people who come in a year from now who will completely outshine ones who came in 6 months ago. But again your misunderstanding of anything MLM will prevent you from understanding that. You just don’t understand it – period.
To start off from scratch like you suggest when a successful program has been already assembled, is in my opinion ridiculous. But that’s jsut my opinion. It’s very apparent that you have a personal grudge against this company and what they’re doing, but you watch and see the accolades is receives over time.
November 25th, 2006 at 12:46 am
Me, focus on the negative side? Please. What I’m focusing on is to find out the truth, instead of the one-sided stories I get from BurnLounger’s trying to prop up the company in the blogosphere so they don’t lose their investment.
Now, to address your comments about Apple, or any other company that has an “affiliate program.” Isn’t that a sort of MLM, but without anyone having to buy in with an upfront fee? I’m sure Apple, Amazon and a hundred other web companies have affiliate programs, but many of them do not charge a fee to get in to use the technology. So, companies like BurnLounge come along and build a pyramid of glass that can shatter at any moment, unless the flock continue to believe in the power of their brothers and sitsters.
Your opinion that building your own business is ridiculous over joining someone else’s business a year after it’s already started? I’d rather be an owner, my friend, than just some schmuck paying in with no options to purchase stock in the business.
If BurnLounge is such a great idea and everyone is a so-called partner in the business, where is the stock option agreement?
On the web, all people see are the negatives…when are the accolades coming? You tell me? I haven’t seen any yet.
Tony Z.
November 25th, 2006 at 6:25 pm
That “propping up” thing – that’s called SALES Tony. Apparently you don’t like the sales process either.
Calling any company that simply has an affiliate program similar to MLM just further proves your absolute lack of knowledge of anything MLM. You may in fact know less about the MLM industry than anyone I’ve ever met. Which like it or not is a big part of why you don’t like Burnlounge – because you simply do not unsderstand it. Just like the other complainers you mentioned, who by the way seem to be limited to blogs. All these people calling it “another pyramid scheme” and so on are simply clueless to the MLM industry. They don’t even know the definition of a pyramid scheme in the first place.
Regarding your ‘pyramid of glass’ comment – if it’s true for Burnlounge, then it’s true for EVERY MLM company out there. So again, your lack of understanding comes thru. You just don’t get it. I was told that Donald Trump has a book out stating that his earlier opinion of the MLM industry was incorrect, that people now SHOULD embrace it. But, go ahead and ignore him too.
Wait till the time comes when that Burnlounge becomes the largest source in the country for music downloads – you’ll still be saying that the sales are inflated. And all of the musicians amd music companies will look at you like you’ve lost it.
November 26th, 2006 at 9:09 am
Yeah, sales to each other. Not sales to the general pubic. I’m glad I don’t know much about the MLM business, because it’s less about selling a product than it is about selling each other distributorships.
Whereas many MLM companies make their own products for distirubtion through their representatives, BurnLounge doesn’t make its own product–musicians do. When they get SnoCap / MySpace…BurnLounge is going to be greatly impacted.
I get it a lot more than you think. And, of course you would reference Donald Trump, the ultimate me-too marketer. If you buy into Donald, then one can see that you’re a follower, not a leader. I don’t buy into what Donald Trump says. The guy grew up on his daddy’s dime. And you think he’s an American success story? Ha! Where’s his reality show now? Not in prime time baby, because you can only market so much until people aren’t interested in the hard sell any more.
Bringing up Trump just goes to show that you’ll listen to anyone that writes a book, launches a TV show or builds a web site to give you the secret to unlocking you earning potential. I suppose you purchased Tony Robbins books as well.
While you’re giving these people money, that’s less money you spend on investing in your own business.
Go build your own business bro, and you’ll find out the hard way what it really takes. From where I sit, it seems like you don’t have a clue to what really goes into running a digital media company. You have no idea of the costs involved, the legal challengs or the technology. All you want to do, is sell people on a dream.
You can keep responding with your justifications and strong avoidance to answering the real questions with real answeres. You can keep trying to convince everyone here that you’re right and everyone else is wrong. You can keep trying to tell me that I don’t understand MLM. You can keep trying to prop-up your investment. At the end of the day, you own nothing, you’re dependent on the pyramid, and you’ve bought into someone else’s dream, instead of your own.
Netmix…that’s mine. I launched in 12-years ago. I was THE FIRST person in the online space to put Oakenfold, Van Helden and Little Louie Vega online. I was the first person in the history of the music business to charge Sony Music for marketing their artists by purchasing advertorial on a web site. And now, I’m the first person in the history of the music business to build a music/fashion application that allows fans to buy what they see in music videos.
You’re the 20,000 person to have a BurnLounge store.
What does that say about you? That you’ll take little risk to make a couple of dollars, and you have no ownership in the concept.
My situation, on the other hand, puts me in an ownership position in all my companies. It’s backed with a 3-years in the Digital Media Management program at New York University, one of the nation’s best universities.
That’s the difference between you and I. I’m an owner, you’re just an employee in something that you have no control over.
Keep spending those dollars. Keep investing in the dream. No one here is going to convince you any different, so we all wish you the best of luck in your BurnLounge experience. Can’t wait to see how you’re doing, this time next year.
Tony Z.
November 27th, 2006 at 1:31 am
Tony lemme put this in the right perspective so as to maybe shed some light in your brain as to where I’m coming from – - –
I understand the difference between owning your own business and working for someone else. I’ve owned my own business, an insurance agency, since 1993. I started it from scratch. My first 6 years in the insurance business was working for a single insurance company and I learned the really, really hard way that the only people that insurance company executives care about less than their policyholders, is their agents. So I opened my own independent agency and have never regretted a single day of the decision. As I considered the move, I was told by my manager that “nobody has ever left here and made it”, which was absolute, 100% BS. The guy who told me that bolted and opened HIS own agency as soon as his renewals were vested, which was a few years later. So, I understand the differences better than you can imagine.
Because of owning my own agency since 1993, I have enough renewal income coming in that I can spend time on things like Burnlounge. The part that you do not understand is that there are people all over this country with half the “smarts” that you and I have and maybe 1/10 of the balls who are making huge amounts of money simply because they got into the right MLM plan at the right time and worked their butts off in the beginning and then simply let the processes of a successful MLM run its course. The friend/client of mine who told me about Burnlounge generated $8000 in commissions in her very first 30 days – now you can glass-half-empty that all you want, 8 G’s is 8 G’s. And she hasn’t stopped working it, nor will she. Within a few months she’ll be at triple where she’s at now, and there’s just no arguing it. It’s MLM 101 – period.
Every person I’ve spoken to about this is gainfully employed – either by owning their own company or because they have a full time job. I personally know a few millionaires who signed up for this because they understand the potential, people I was quite surprised to see in it. We see what you do not – which is fine of course – but as I’ve said before, the arguments you’re making against it are based on your lack of knowledge regarding it. The number of people who got in it before me has WAY less to do with it than the small number of people who are in it in the 1.5 million population where I live. I’m talking to a guy who lives in a state where out of about 25 zip codes I checked, there was only ONE person in it Tony – ONE!!! And that’s because it’s still brand new to many parts of the country. I met with a guy today who looked in his part of the state where he lives, there were NONE Tony – NONE!!! If these 2 sign up and run with it, the sky’s the limit – and they’ll be part of my downline, which benefits me too. If you do not understand the potential in that, then I’m tellin ya, you need to get your head examined.
For the record, I have never been a Tony Robbins fan, but for you to discount him, and therefore what he does for the people who DO believe in him, the lives he’s improved – that says a LOT about you as a person. Ya know, just because something’s “not your thing”, it doesn’t make it stupid or a waste of time. You seem to carry a lot of pessimism and negativity for anything outside of “your thing” and I’ll bet that it’s seeped into your own success too.
Regarding Trump, same thing – just discount the things he’s accomplished because he started off with Daddy’s money. There are a lot of people in this country who started off with Daddy’s money who are flat broke today. And, The Apprentice was a huge success in its first 2 seasons – but now that it’s lost popularity, you scoff at it. Again, negative negative.
You’re apparent negativity and pessimism probably hurts you more than you know.
November 27th, 2006 at 11:28 am
Barry,
I never said that MLM was a bad idea inherently. I’m not against MLM as a concept. What I am concerned about is an MLM that, and I’ll say this for the ten thousandth time:
1. Uses only email as customer support for its retailers; no 1-800 number.
2. Deep in the fine print says that WMA files will not work with “any Apple Operating Systems.” Should be clearly stated BEFORE anyone gives their credit card number.
3. No where is the profit split listed until AFTER you give your credit card number. To me, that is not giving people a real understanding of the business until after they’ve signed up. And, there’s no “money back gurantee” if you don’t like the service.
4. I don’t believe in the $400+ dollar upfront payment or $20 per month purchase requirement; mainly, because that’s where all the revenue comes from and not from true music sales. If I were an investor in a business, I would not want to invest in something that is being propped up by internal music sales.
So, you can keep thinking that I’m being a pessimist, but you’d be wrong, because I’m being prudent and a realist. Anything that’s too good to be true usually isn’t. If the company isn’t going to give me that information upfront, then I feel it’s hiding something that I won’t find out until AFTER I join. I think that’s misleading and it could very well be found to be illegal someday. I’m not saying it is, but it can border on it by not giving people access to information before they sign up for the program.
If you did that with a business plan, the SEC would be up your ass in 10 seconds and you’d be found guilty of defrauding investors, because you didn’t disclose everything you needed to about the business. Maybe BurnLounge doesn’t have to, I don’t know. But I think they should.
I did not discount Tony Robbins. I implied that you were probably a follower of his methodologies, that’s all.
As for Trump, I’m not discounting him either. What I’m saying is that he had a leg up to those you don’t. It was easier for him to get where he is today, because of privilege and nepotism, than the hard work that you or I had to do.
So, you can tell my readers all you want that you think I’m negative and a pessimist, but if you lived in New York City, then you would probably be just as cautious as I am, especially given that I’ve gone through one dotcom bust and am hoping not to see another.
Tony Z.
November 29th, 2006 at 11:10 am
My days of living in NYC are way behind me. I miss the food, but that’s it. I could not be paid enough to move back there. Visits only.
Tony if you understood MLM you’d clearly see that there’s nothing “too good to be true” about it. But you don’t understand the pay structure. And this is not in the same category as what was the typical dot.com. In the typcial dot.com people were throwing craploads of money into internet based companies with nothing to go on but a promise of a result, one that didn’t come thru. This company is working. They have a product, they have more coming, they’re making money, they’re paying commissions. There’s no comparison.
You’re perfectly free to not like the $429 sign up and $20 per month sales requirement – nobody’s making you do it. But the people who are in it, and the ones who are joining are doing it freely.
I’m curious as to how many others are reading this.
November 29th, 2006 at 10:34 pm
What I find fascinating, Barry, is the fact you consistently skip over the issues I have raised about BurnLounge. You keep on talking about MLM pay structures and how much money people can make, but you never once address the lack of an 800 number, the fact that people have to email to get customer support. You never spell out how the ticketing program is really going to work. You never give any facts to support your position. Why is that Barry? Where’s the BEEF?
To answer your question, there are a lot of people reading this. More than I could have imagined. It’s a hot issue, because there are so many people who are concerned about the what I have raised here, and the fact that no one seems to want to address them.
Tony
November 29th, 2006 at 11:37 pm
Well they must be quiet people……… Well, you make sure that once all these questions have been answered and there’s no more question in their minds that it’s legit, that they go to my site to sign up to be moguls of their own, OK?
MLM companies typically do not have a toll free number for the reps, but I will ask why there isn’t one for the customers. How’s that?
First of all you’ve never asked me how the ticketing program is going to work. Secondly, I have no idea how the ticketing program is going to work because as I’ve already said, we ain’t got it yet. But I promise you, as soon as it’s available, I’ll run right back here to tell you and “all the others”
To say that I don’t back up what I’m saying with facts is purely ridiculous. Maybe you need to read a little slower because I’ve had to say the same things over and over again. Bet hey buddy, I’m here for ya, and if it takes repeating myself 10 times to get you to understand it, you just let me know and I’ll just keep on repeating.
Lemme ask you something, since you mentioned the tickets thing. Let’s say they put it together, and it works – at the same prices as say Ticket Master. What’s your opinion going to be then?
November 30th, 2006 at 11:55 am
Barry, I hate to one-up you, seeing as you’re so knowledgeable about these things. But, like I’d said in one of my previous posts, BurnLounge IS WORKING WITH TICKETMASTER!
http://www.digitalmusicnews.com/results?title=Live%20Nation
Date: august, 2006 (81406)
BurnLounge members will soon have the ability to sell Live Nation event tickets, part of a fresh alliance between the pair. BurnLounge, a distributed network that involves thousands of individual sellers, will offer its members special venue access, as well as continuous information on concerts and events. The partnership will broaden BurnLounge considerably, which has so far been focused on digital download sales. “This relationship benefits our community by getting them special access to venues and their VIP rooms, but it also provides BurnLounge with incredible visibility to thousands of concertgoers in key markets,” said BurnLounge president Ryan Dadd.
For Live Nation, the BurnLounge arrangement is part of a string of deals and acquisitions. Just recently, the concert giant purchased a majority stake in Musictoday, an artist website and online services provider. That followed a $350 million purchase involving House of Blues, an acquisition that allowed Live Nation to broaden its footprint into midsize venues and clubs. For BurnLounge, the deal diversifies the portfolio of goods and services being offered, and offers a bit of legitimacy to the upstart. The story on BurnLounge is still early, though most of the revenue appears to be coming from areas outside of paid downloads, including sign-up fees. The alliance first surfaced this morning.
–
So, Barry, what do you say now?
Let me say this, that even if Ticketmaster opened up ALL TICKETS to BurnLounger’s to sell, Ticketmaster will still sell infinitely more because of, a. Brand Recognition, and b. they’ll sell at the box office and many BurnLoungers won’t move as fast, with many tickets then unavailable to the BurnLounge buyer.
It’s not the cash cow you think, my friend.
Sorry to burst your bubble. Do your research instead of just thinking about how much money you’re going to make. The media business is not like insurance. It’s brutally competitive. I know this from experience, while you refuse to acknowledge it.
November 30th, 2006 at 10:13 pm
The way you bring the negative light to things is unbelieveable. Did I ever say that Burnlounge would ever TAKE ON TICKET MASTER AND DRIVE THEM INTO THE GROUND UNTIL THEY BEG TO BE BOUGHT, or did I simply say that one of the products Burnlounge was planning on bringing in was concert tickets? For God’s sake Tony, stop with the drama already. You’re just hell-bent on de-legitimizing this company.
I do appreciate the link though.
December 6th, 2006 at 4:32 am
Hi Tony & Barry.
Thanks for your inputs both ,I read and try to understand the biz here.
let me tell you that i’m not retailer or fan. I just want to invest in the company (buying stock shares thus).
I would like to have an idea : as up to now how much money the company could have made with all the differents fomrulas of sign-in ?
Any idea?
Would appreciate to know too , as xmas and new year is close, do you see some traffic increase in you store ?
Appreciate any comment.
GuestGround0
December 6th, 2006 at 6:55 am
To Barry:
No, you did not say that Ticketmaster would be burned into the groud. My point to you is that you’re so caught up in the fact that you think the company is a watershed moment in the history of music distribution, but because my perception is that your sole goal is to “make money” just for the sake of making money, that you’re not scrutinizing the company carefully and you’re not doing the homework any investor into any idea needs to do before they toss their time and money into a project.
You, of all people, should have known about this deal with Ticketmaster. I’m relatively certain, given my thorough knowledge of new media and partner development in the web world, that Ticketmaster WOULD NOT give the same access to tickets to BurnLounge that they have on their own site. And, SINCE THAT ANNOUNCEMENT, which happened some time ago, there has been no further movement or integration of Ticketmaster into BurnLounge. How long is it going to take to make it happen? Why isn’t it done already?
I do not believe that selling Tickets through the MLM pyramid will be a successful endeavor. But, that’s just my opinion.
To GuestGround:
I advise you to carefully scrutinize the company’s business plan and its contracts. No one knows how much the company has made, because that is not public information. They are not a public company, so there are no SEC requirements to report revenues to the public and investors as of yet.
No one knows exactly how many registered BurnLounger’s there are, and how many of those are “active” meaning that after they signed up, how many others have followed, and how many continue to activelly participate in getting more people to sign up.
You can sign up all the moguls you want, but there will be a tipping point when mogul sign-ups slow down. Then you’ll have to depend on sales, and there’s going to be a certain amount of “churn.” That’s the word the cable industry uses to describe subscribers who leave the company equal to the number of new subscribers. Once you get to a certain point and you start losing more subs to your new sign-ups, you’ve got a problem.
I suggest you do your homework my friend. I hold stock in Real Networks. They have a deal with Samsung, in which they’ve created their own player and have a successful rental download business with over 1 Million registered users. They are more successful than Napster, and have no sign-up fees. The company has been in business since the early 90’s and hold patents on streaming technology. They are in a far greater position to compete at a high level than BurnLounge is today. Even Napster is in a better positioin than BurnLounge. A music portal must have a cohesive message and serve their audience from a central point. All these BurnLoungers out there promoting willy nilly with no clear message, to me, is a disaster waiting to happen.
BurnLounge spends more time and effort marketing to their internal members than they do to the public. They are more interested in signing up new moguls, than selling music to the public. That’s the message I get from them, and that can only last so long.
Take it from me, I would never buy stock in this company. It looks too good to be true, it usually is.
Tony
December 6th, 2006 at 11:22 am
I found this for MLM stuffs:
http://www.profitsnomatterwhat.com/BurnLounge_.php?gclid=CP_Qy-Kc_ogCFTVYQgodInhDAw
someone has already seen/read that? Maybe just a promotion to sell the book “Profits No Matter What” ,but maybe it will help you guys caught in this MLM adventure .
“Enjoying success in BurnLounge without these secrets is like trying to cross the Atlantic Ocean in an inflatable raft… maybe it can be done, but the failure rate is enormous!”
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I wish to reveal …
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Just use your first name and valid email as your password – then click the “Free Instant Access!” button to enter (Use the same password when returning.) Allow the next page a few seconds to load.
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“
December 6th, 2006 at 3:54 pm
It’s all that get rich quick BS…who cares?
Tony Z.
December 6th, 2006 at 10:37 pm
Guestground –
Tony, while possibly well intentioned on some level, has no real-world knowledge of the MLM industry, which is why he keeps referring to Burnlounge as a too good to be true and therefore headed for disaster or whatever pessimistic things he comes up with. He just doesn’t understand it. He DOES NOT understand it.
Tony – I’ve said this how many times now – music now, but will also have concert tickets, movies, cell phones, e-books, ring tones and whatever else digital they can bring into it. I saw stories on CNBC last week where they were discussing the challenges that Wal Mart and Blockbuster are facing because of the threat of digitally downloadable movies negating the need to physically buy or rent a dvd. Well, my half-glass-empty friend, my understanding is that movies are the next target of Burnlounge.
Regarding my not knowing the exact details of the ticket deal, as I said the day I did my first post here, I’m new to this.
Tony, this company just launched a few months ago. It’s not going to be perfect overnite. Be patient – you’ll have plenty of time to realize that you should have gotten in months ago.
December 6th, 2006 at 11:17 pm
Barry:
Thanks for at least saying that I’m “well intentioned.”
Here’s the deal: It doesn’t matter whether or not I have MLM experience, because what I do have is a fundamental understanding of digital media and the entertainment industry. I wouldn’t be a VP of Music at Entertainment Media Works, a funded entitiy with 50 full and p/t resources in three cities if I didn’t know what I was talking about.
Let’s forget about the MLM structure and talk about cell phones. You’ve got Boost, Amp’d and a bunch of other small players already buying time on the Sprint/Cingular/Verizon backbones. All those companies are hurting for customers, and Sprint/Cingular/Verizon’s industry churn is a constant. Do you really think that hundreds of people are going to drop their standard cell plan to have a cell plan with BurnLounge? I can’t WAIT for that to happen. BurnLounge doesn’t even have good customer service for its moguls, never mind a potential couple of hundred thousand cell phone subs. Do you really think that the music heavy BurnLounge would ever compete with the established brands and the companies that buy time on those networks. Do you realize what the costs and barriers to entry are? You have absolutely no idea. It’s just not that easy, my friend.
You talk about MLM, but you have almost zero fundamental understanding of digital media at its core. Forget the argument about MLM, let’s talk about the costs of doing business!
Whether or not Blockbuster or Walmart continue to sell or rent DVD’s doesn’t matter. BurnLounge moguls would be faced with competing with BitTorrent and other established companies with millions of dollars (or billions like YouTube) who will crush any hope of BurnLounge taking a slice of the downloadable movie pie. Not to mention the fact that not many people are even paying for downloadable movies at this point.
What you don’t realize, my friend, is that there aren’t a lot of people out there who are going to buy movies from BurnLounge, when they can get them through BitTorrent, a company that already have deals with the major studios. And, BurnLounge can’t afford, with their minimal investment capitalization to be attacking all these markets that you speak of.
Once you understand digital media from its cost center, then you’ll see what I’m talking about. But you sit on the OUTSIDE, my friend, looking in; rying to get into something you missed the boat on years ago. I’m not trying to insult you, but here you are, today, throwing money at the wall and hoping it sticks.
Tell me, in the last few weeks, since we started this, have you broken even yet?
Tony Z.
December 7th, 2006 at 12:13 am
Tony, well intentioned but way in the dark Tony –
What I don’t understand about the digital media business is greatly outweighed by the lack of MLM knowledge that is stopping you from understanding WHY doing these same things via MLM makes more sense than conventional methods, thereby making them NOT “too good to be true”. Take the cell phones for example – what is in my estimation $millions that these other ‘players’ have to put into advertising and startup costs – it won’t have to happen thru Burnlounge or any other MLM company. Look at it this way as an example – “Mr. or Mrs. Cell Phone Manufacturer, here’s what we’re gonna do. You’re gonna manufacture a phone and set up the calling plans. Outside of brochures, you’re never going to have to spend a dime on advertising, and you’re never going to have to spend a dime on storefronts or kiosks, and you’ll never have to hire a single salesperson because we already have (factoring it being in the future) 150,000 eager, straight commission, 1099, independent contractors ready and willing to sell your phones to their friends and famillies, and of course to themselves. Because you won’t be going the standard advertising, hiring and storefront routes of conducting your business, you’ll obviously save millions of dollars per year. So you need to give us a good deal or you’re wasting our time. Oh, and the brochures you’ll be making, our reps will be buying them from you, just as in every other MLM program out there, so they won’t really cost you anything in the long run either. I think we can work a deal, don’t you?”……….
Now, hopefully someday to be seeing the light Tony, what if the number of reps reaches 500,000?
Tony that’s how every MLM program out there works, there’s NO reinventing the wheel here – NONE!!! Ask ANY MLM nutritional supplement company if they’re having “problems” competing with GNC. Ask Amway if they’re having “problems” competing with Wal Mart. Ask Mary Kay or Arbonne if they’ve having “problems” competing with any cosmetics company out there. Meanwhile, when’s the last time you saw a company paid ad or commercial for Amway, or Advocare, or Shaklee, or Melaleuca, or Mary Kay, or Advocare, or Arbonne, or Vemma, or Xango, or Matol, or Primerica or any other MLM compnay? There’s a whole slug of MLM companies selling a huge range of products from soap to supplements to air fresheners to insurance etc. that you’ve never seen an ad for, nor will you ever, because they don’t have to – they’ve got armies of straight commission sales reps doing it all for them.
Maybe this will help you understand why it’s not a too good to be true thing.
Oh, I’m at $470 thus far, my total outlay was $477. And my downline hasn’t even started working it yet. Plus I’m on vacation. Meanwhile I ain’t even got the credit card statement yet and it’s basically paid off. And there’s approximately $500 waiting for me because of the people my upline placed below me. This is just the beginning of course. YES Tony I’ve spent time on this, but not nearly as much as my insurance business. It’s only just begun.
December 7th, 2006 at 6:18 am
Barry:
One word, “Excel.” Where are they now?
There’s a huge difference in the product mix between the companies you are talking about and the digital media strategy of BurnLounge.
People go to cell phone stores to purchase cell phones, they don’t have cell phone parties at home with all their friends. I don’t see that happening in my lifetime.
My friend, I am not a pessimist. I’m a realist.
You, on the other hand, REFUSE to look at any of the barriers to entry or even acknowledge that any exists. In any business plan, there’s always a reverse outlook of the challenges companies face in getting into a market. You have NOT ONCE ever acknowledged that there are barriers to entry.
That my friend, is misleading. A good salesman knows there’s an upside and a downside. You must be willing to admit the downside and overcome it, or no one will believe you.
Tony Z.
December 7th, 2006 at 10:07 am
Yeah you got me, Excel went down, so why waste my time here, right? Then with the Tower Records bankruptcy – WHY are you wasting your time in the music industry? Exactly, neither makes sense.
Tony, lemme tell you a secret, but you have to promise to not tell anyone – EVERYTHING HAS A DOWNSIDE. But what you consider to be downsides in this case are not as as prevalent as you think they are. The difference here is that I’m looking at the upsides, and you’re harping on the impending doom. Because again, you don’t understand how the MLM aspect of this will make it succeed. And here’s a perfect example –
The cell phones – a friend of mine used to be an independent cell phone rep. His prices were the same as the cell phone stores. I bought my phone from him. So did at about 10 other people I know. Why did we buy from him instead of going to the store, and why did we refer him to other people? Because he came to us, right to our offices, with the dummy phones and everything. Signed us up right at our desks. And there was no “cell phone party” either (c’mon man…). So don’t tell me that people won’t buy from individuals. They do it all the time. And while granted the commission off of a single cell phone sale ain’t exactly gonna make a house payment, a whole network of people below you doing the same thing can.
And regarding the music downloads, there are already a few people who are going to download their music thru my Burnlounge store instead of where they were getting it before. Wasn’t hard to get them to do it either – I think I just asked…………….
December 9th, 2006 at 12:23 pm
Barry,
I’ve lived the downside, so I don’t need to be schooled. Great that you’re so positive about BurnLounge, but the fundamental questions that have been asked here and elsewhere never seem to be answered.
Whatever you want to say about MLM and how great it is, that’s fine. In BurnLounge’s case, they have specific problems that need to be addressed, and I don’t see that taking place any time soon to alleviate my concerns. I will continue to evangelize for the truth about BurnLounge in their marketing, in their sales techniques and other areas that I am in complete and total disagreement with.
Wish you the best of luck with it. Report back in next year with your comments and we’ll all see how far you got. You seem to be spending more time trying to sell me on the concept, and I ain’t biting. There’s a whole world out there to sell, so you’d better get cracking! Oh right, I forgot, BurnLounger’s aren’t allowed to create their own marketing materials. Hmmm… I guess the pie just got that much smaller.
December 9th, 2006 at 1:21 pm
Great information here…. thanks tony….
All of you are right and thats why i joined this post.
Those of you speak of MLM and all the terms around business that come along with it. We have all been caught up at least once. And should be wise and learn.
So thats how all of you are right.
In 2002 I researched on how i can open my own so called “ITunes” or digital download store. With little to no services that deal with independent ventures unless willing to pay thousands on thousands of dollars a month to even think about starting one.
I continued searching, Becuase i own an independent production label and Im constantly looking for new distribution models as i feel my artist should be distributed in every internet store I can find. Good distribution results as we tell others where to go to get our music hoping that customer has a account. We,ve noticed few results becuase itunes and the rest can only promote so much music thru there front pages etc. and most have never downloaded online before (offline) and do not have accounts and with itunes or any other store. Also they are not willing to give credit/debit card and become a FREE customer.
Itunes, along with a list of over 200 branded online stores allows us to market and distribute on a world wide scale, till this day this list has not given us any promotion power to allow customers to hear our music and is very time consuming to manage.
Until a few days ago i see burnlounge banner and after 2 days of research I cant ask for a better service for my artist, customers, friends and family.
1. Now my artist are getting all the promotion from thousands of burnlounge members promoting there stores.
( Its free to get your music on burnlounge without a account for free. and is displayed thru all stores for sells and i make more then Itunes.)
2. Now customers i send to buy my music has over 2 million albums to choose from and I get paid if they buy somthing else. not just itunes.
3. Now Me and my family buy music from our store and save more money then buying music from Itunes… even if under there affiliate program.
4. Now my tools include gift certificates and cards to give away that customers can use for free music or there own burnlounge. Frontburner and BMS application that gives stats on burnlounge as a whole business need the best organizing and reports to stay focused. and too much to explained all for 29/yr and 6.95 a month.
I still use the other services just to be available to customers on a world wide scale.
We all are apart of the music business in some form.. if you just like music like most of us then this is not for you… Just use burnlounge or any other service you buy from and thats that.
If you want to be apart of the music business meaning investment, time, effort, and all the other things needed in any business this this my be for you.
Thanks again for reading
Heres what your not seeing that changes everything.
Yes, i have a joined this venture.
This company was LOUDEYE purchased by “MUZE” a Burnlounge Partner!
December 11th, 2006 at 9:42 am
Christopher you’ll get 0 agreement here from anyone who’s not in Burnlounge. They don’t understand MLM, and no matter what kind of info you provide that’s positive, you’ll get a negative aspect about it back in response. Since it’s not perfect, it’s apparently a waste of time.
To Tony, having that $20 per month requirement is a negative. “People shouldn’t have to have a requirement like that – how dare this company think that they have the right to FORCE people (to do business)”, etc…….. He completely ignores that fact that people agreed to it up front and don’t mind it. If you go back to the very beginning, it’s crystal clear that most of his arguments against this company are based on the fact that he simply doesn’t understand it. And then when it’s explained to him, he comes up with other things – such as (and I’m not making this up) that it doesn’t cater to non-English speaking people. Well darn…………..
December 20th, 2006 at 1:59 pm
i only read the first few but the people that got so upset are fucking retarded. i am in burnlounge and it is bullshit and i knew that going in but theres one person in the world that i would get into this for and so i did. if anyone else brought this to me i would have said no. maybe someday i will post some real numbers on here so people can see the truth of the money that the LARGE MAJORITY will not make. i understand how people can get sucked into it but sit down and do some math. you may be lucky and make a shit load but the people under you are probably gonna lose money. i have done enough math to figure this out, and by the way you don’t have to go very far to see that. this is a real guess but maybe 5 MAYBE 10 % will make back there investment plus make a profit. you make money by getting people “under” you, not selling music. that is the sad truth from someone who is in it. anyone tells you otherwise is wrong, i’m sorry. i don’t think the owners are greedy evil people. in fact, everything i’ve heard about them(from people who have sat down and had meetings with them) say how genuine and motivated they are about the company. I’m not trying to put down the company, i wish them success. I mean, i ‘ve got money in this thing too! the only thing that bothers me would be people with not alot of extra cash, maybe even charging the fees (me), thinking this is gonna be “extra grocery money” as one burnlounge rep put it. that was part of the schpeel. saying it can be anywhere from extra grocery money to a full-time money making beast. if you don’t have the money to throw away, i would suggest you not get involved, being your chances of making that money back are slim. if you do happen to make your money back and some, your friends underneath you will be a bit upset ( like me and the 7 or 8 under me that i’m sure will never even make back there startup costs. burnlounge says we’re unmotivated? i own my own home-improvement business so motivation is not the issue here. It just won’t work for most people. Bypass the flashy ads and what people say “so and so” made and do the math. I believe you will agree. Sorry.
December 22nd, 2006 at 1:53 am
Josh there’s no mystery to this program – if you work it you have a definite chance to make money at it, and I know people who are making very consistent money at it. If you don’t work it there is no chance whatsoever you’re gonna make any money – period. The 7 or 8 people you said are under you, did they come in with the expectation that they were going to make money just by joining? Because if they’re under that impression, someone BS’ed them. It’s just like anything else – work it and you’ll get paid, don’t, and you won’t.
December 22nd, 2006 at 4:19 pm
i agree 100%. And by work that means get more people under you. I can’t “hype ” people into it like most do. I’ve told a few people about it, but never tried to “”sell” anyone on it. It’s a good system for some people but NOT the large majority. Here’s a bit of math for you. Burnlounge is all about the music right? Well here’s something more than Burnlounge hype.
Some famous musicians are being advertised as having Burnlounge stores. This is touted as such a big deal…good enough for them than it’s good enough for us. Famous musicians are great at what they do, play music, on average they are no smarter or business savy than the average American. Some are very much so, some not so much. So don’t look to them for a reason to get into Burnlounge. It makes sense for anyone selling a fair amount of cd’s on there store. Now some math.
The cost of the best burnlounge store is about $450. Your monthly fees for a year are roughly $165 ($13.80 per month). Grand total for a year: $615
This store allows you to sign up people under you for which you recieve $50 if they by the most expensive store.
You also receive $.05 for every $.99 download or $.50 for every $9.90 album download.
You also make money from people under you when they sell albums. $.02 for every $.99 download and $.20 for every $9.90 album download.
I hope i can spell all this out before i get bored to tears.
This works for major musicians if they sell enough albums. To make back their yearly fees they will have to sell 12,300 singles or 1,230 albums through their store(615/.05=12,300 : 615/.5=1,230). Now for alot of major-label musicians this isn’t a problem. They get their normal wage of however much from the sale alone plus the extra $.05 or $.50 for an album. Anything over 1,230 albums is pure profit. If thay sell another 50,000 albums through burnlounge in a year they will make an extra $25,000 from their Burnlounge commission(50.000x.50=25,000). Hell Yeah! It is a smart move for them, no doubt about it. They do not however make more as far as regular wages for the song. Some claim they make between $.50 and $.75 per single. This may be be accurate, I’m not positive. They claim this is more than Itunes or other major stores pay them. I am pretty sure it’s kind of an acroos the board thing that they are making more by selling digital albums regardless of who they sell it through. Regardless, we’ve already established that it is a good move for popular artists. For you and I? Well, you’ve seen that you have to sell 1,230 albums to just make back your money. About 100 albums a month. Be aware burnloung does not promote your store. YOU promote it solely, so between your friends, family, co-workers and whoever else, you have to convince them to buy through your store about 100 albums a month just to break even. Good luck with your family and friends let alone the “whoever else”. There is really no incentive to buy through your burnlounge store other than the fact that it is yours. it is no cheaper and in it’s current stage actually inferior to Itunes. When 2.0 comes out it is supposed to fix all the little issues and add a ton of new features. From what I’ve heard it does sound like it’s gonna be a right up there with itunes or any of the others. Let it be known by the way that I’m not downing Burnlounge as a whole. There claim for wealth among the masses is BS though. OK Burnlounge won’t say this but everyone from there top promoters flying around the country to the grass-level, will be preaching this. Not true, no way around it and NOONE i have seen on here or any of the other sites has a rebutal to that. Just ” If you don’t work on it as a business it won’t grow”. True but not the pat answer it sounds to be.
So 100 albums a month to break even. Now, personnally I love music and am actually somewhat in the business (not my living but I’m still young) and I MIGHT by 2 albums a month. 1 is probably the mor honest answer. Even if I had all the money I wanted for this, there are only so many people out there I want to listen to. Are there even 2 albums a month coming out that I want to buy? maybe. For the sake of this discussion let’s say 1 album a week or 4 a month are average (you all know there ain’t no way). So you would have to find 25 people to buy 4 albums a month regularly to break even( 100/4=25). I hope you see already that this just ain’t gonna happen for the average person, don’t care how hard you try. At one Burlounge promotion I went to the speaker (one of THE TOP guys in this thing by the way) said and i quote (well roughly anyway)” I probaly won’t ever make much money from selling songs thrugh my store. my mother buys her music through there but that’s about it. I make money from the people underneath me.” and they say this isn’t a pyramid. He meant through the music people sell through their stores underneath them but I guaruntee he is making a HELL of alot more through the $50 sign on bonus per person underneath him. They say treat it like a business. OK go make up some flyers and start passing them out, spread the word. By through my store because…because…uh well I make money off of it. Yeah. And what do you get from it? well…how ’bout a free album download for every ten you download through my store! Oh no, then I’d be losing five dollars every ten albums(10 x.50=5 : cost of album? $9.90 : 9.90-5=4.90). oK you’d lose $4.90 every ten sold… I lied, you caught me. How about 1 free every 40 albums bought. you get a free album($10 value) and I make about $10. It takes about 10 months using our inflated average of 4 albums bought a week and you spend $396 on music downloads (9.90×40=396). Damn! how can you guys refute this! People you don’t know aren’t gonna buy through your store just because. Burnlounge doesn’t have anything that the other stores don’t have. If it was $7.99 an album that would be aselling point. If it had exclusive Burnlounge content that would be a plus. (Itunes often does this by the way, as do Wal-mart and some other large chains). Burnlounges only big difference is it is owned by you. Steve Jobbs isn’t getting rich of your dollar… I am HA HA HA! (Funny how many times I’ve heard that about steve jobs). So Steve invents it and he doesn’t deserve that money, I put up my favorite albums on a digtal storefront and i do? God Bless the USA. I know some will say “if you weren’t spending all your time putting down burnlounge maybe you’d make some money. I couldn’ agree more. This last hour spent on the computer could have been used walking the downtown streets in search of potential cusomers. I think I’ll go curl up in a ball now. Seriously I know I haven’t touched on the money made by people selling music underneath you and signing up people underneath you but rest assured, A very few will make a shit load, some will make a good bit, MOST MOST MOST will not makee back there investments. Please don’t post a rebutal. Haven’t I spent enough time on this? I f you do have a reply though I’m sure my dumbass will sit here for another hour and type up something that only afew of you will take the time to read. Let me note that I have never posted on a blog until now (truthfully). But I know this subject (unfortunately) fairly well and there is ALOT of shit flying around. Just in case you thought i liked to argue about nothing just ’cause i can. Well yas wrong! Forgot to mention burnlounge will offer movies and from what I hear video games and tickets online soon. Maybe even books(?). Knew some of you would come back with that one. Still nothing you can’t find on another store. If you know 25 people willing to buy 4 albums a month “GET IN”. When the other content comes you might even make a profit if you can get them to by more shit from you’re store cause they like ya. If your gonna refute this don’t write 2 lines, put some time into it. I’m begging. Don’t just say something stupid so I can waste more of my substantial free time. Your turn BIATCH! just kidding calm down.
December 22nd, 2006 at 4:29 pm
Oh and i kind of grazed thrugh a few more of the other posts. those talking about the papa john franchise thing. you’re right. those papa johns will probably make the investors money though by selling pizza not by then selling other people franchises. I hope the people posting why the general public should buy in are sincere in which case I don’t have any bad feelings for them at all. If they are trying to “build there business” (turn a buck) then when they stop making money from this business, I hope they feel the wrath of Mr. Heat Miser. damn i want some pizza now.
December 25th, 2006 at 9:49 pm
Josh, you’re only looking at the short side of this – lemme put it this way – the guy who signed me up has placed about 10 more people on my A side than I have on my B side. So if my A side completely stops and all I do is place people on my B side, I’m gonna make $100 on each of the next 10 people I place myself ($50 from the sign up and $50 from the points matching with my A side), plus have 1000 more points left over on my B side to pay me more as my A side continues. Not to mention the points that I’ll receive by my B side downline placing people too.
Nobody has ever tried to hide the fact that this is MLM. MLM and pyramids are NOT THE SAME!!! Pyramids have no product and are strictly money driven. This obviously has a product with more to come right around the corner.
One of my friends just got into this maybe 9 weeks ago. In her first 30 days she generated $8000 in commissions. Now as I said, she recently got in, she was not one of the originals, not even close. So it comes down to what I’ve repeatedly said here – if you don’t work it you ain’t making squat, but if you DO work it you can make good money. The people who don’t make back their investments simply did not work it – it’s no more complicated than that. It’s MLM Josh, not a free ride. MLM’s are ALL predicated on people bringing in people. There’s no secret there.
December 25th, 2006 at 9:53 pm
HERE TONY – JUST FOR YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Straight from the FAQ section of the individual Burnlounge sites –
Will music from BurnLounge play on an iPod?
No. BurnLounge music comes in a protected Windows file. iPods can not play protected Windows files. This is why Apple ipods can not play music from most online music services with the exception of Apple itunes.
Apple uses their proprietary copy protection, so only Apple-compatible sound files can be used on iPod. Apple would have to change their policy and open up support for other formats to allow Windows Media files to play on iPods.
Our music files use DRM-protected (Digital Rights Management) WMA (Windows Media Audio). DRM-protected WMA is what ensures that you can legally acquire the license to play, transfer, sync, and burn music for your own, non-commercial use. Most digital music online stores, with the exception of iTunes, use DRM-protected WMA files. As a result, you can play the music we offer on hundreds of portable devices.
December 25th, 2006 at 10:39 pm
Barry:
Which individual BurnLounge site? Post the link.
As far as your first post about your friend making $8K, that’s great that she’s selling other people packages, but is anyone buying music?
Have you started selling any music? You can have tens of thousands of stores in the chain, but if no one is selling any music and simply selling each other a dream, who cares?
All this A and B money changing hands doesn’t prove anything to anyone. What’s the sustainable business model?
Zune is tanking this Christmas, and the iPod Shuffle is the new toy. You tell me when BurnLounge makes sense, because I still don’t see it.
Tony
December 26th, 2006 at 12:25 am
Go to any burnlounger’s site, such as mine linked above and click on FAQ’s in the upper right corner. It’s right in there.
December 26th, 2006 at 1:14 pm
Yeah Barry. I am not disagreeing with anything you are saying. And you are in a way (without trying to put words in your mouth) agreeing with what I am saying. This is an MLM (didn’t realize there was a differnece there) and you will not make money unless people are under you. It’s just that Burnlounge is so hyped on the music and so is every promoter. It’s simply not the money-maker here and since you have yet to argue this point, i think you agree (again not trying to put words in your mouth. Music will be bought , yes. Money will be made by selling music, yes. But the money-makers here are getting rich off of getting people underneath them. From what you have written it seems like this is obviously just the way it is “no secret”. If you are getting people to buy in by telling them ” this is an MLM, you will make your money by getting people under”, I don’t think I can argue with that. It’s still BS but at least your up front. Burnlounge is hyped on the music and getting “music stores” under you. This ain’t Papa John’s. Damn now I want pizza AGAIN! no i am not a fat ass.
I wish you would just agree that MOST people wil lose money. You seem pretty knowledgeable about the whole subject so you must realise this. It’s not a matter of opinion, it’s very simple. And most people (myself included) will not renew after a year. At least amway has an original product. Burnlounge has nothing original to sell. Make your money but keep your day job. Nobody will retire off Burnlounge. I bet in 5 years it’s not even remembered. Thank God. Though I have deffinetly learned a life lesson through all this. I am signing off for good now. God Bless and be true to yourself (whenever convenient).
December 27th, 2006 at 2:18 pm
Josh where’s the difference between the people at the top making the most money as compared to the people at the bottom in this or any other company out there? I can tell you where – with a company like this at least the newer ones coming in actuallly HAVE the chance to make good money at it. Nobody getting involved with this company is “getting stuck in the mailroom” so to speak. You work it, you’ll make money. Period.
What % of people will lose money in it and won’t renew – I just don’t know. But the fact remains that if someone loses money at this it’s because they simply didn’t work it. And it’s NOT BS as you claim. Why is it BS? It’s no different than any other MLM out there. And everyone has the chance to build a downline, so what’s the problem? If you’re not MLM saavy I at least understand where you’re coming from, but that doesn’t make the program wrong.
December 28th, 2006 at 12:30 pm
Josh, thanks for your comments.
My take on Barry’s opinion is, truthfully, that I’m growing weary of his inability to convey any semblance of a commitment to selling music to consumers. From what I’ve read so far, Barry hopes to make his millions subscribing other BurnLoungers underneath him. He wants those people to do all the heavy lifting of marketing the service to music consumers and actually selling music, in way that is merchandised correctly, on these web sites.
If I were an artist, I would scream at the top of my lungs to make sure that BurnLounge did not allow its moguls to place my music alongside music of artists where it didn’t belong, who I didn’t want to be associated with or where I wouldn’t receive the maxium amount of visibility given my popularity in the marketplace.
If I’m an artist, I’m pointing my fans to one place, not 30,000 individual online retailers to get my product, so I know who is marketing me correctly. Sure, there’s the theory of the Long Tail, but if you may not even appear on those 30,000 sites unless that retailer asked to sell your product and merchandised your correcty.
I can go on an on, but the main point I’m trying to make here is: Barry knows absolutely nothing about music sales and everything about MLM. That leaves one to ponder the question, why should I buy music from Barry? Why should I even care about Barry, if all he wants to do is to make money for the sake of making money, and not from contributing in some way to–I’m thinking in his mind–the lofty ambition of simpling selling music to music fans in a reasonably successful fashion.
Let’s get even more real here…
Barry, you bore me with your MLM promotion. You bore me with your vision of soley making money off the backs of others hard work. You bore me with your entire argument.
That being said, people like you should have no business in the music business. At least Warren Buffet likes playing the stock market game. That’s what he’s good at. He made millions, no billions, being good at something.
Barry, to me, the only thing you’re good for is to hype a product. You have no understanding of merchandising, music marketing or the digital music space. I have to tell you that you’re on investment is making a deal with Ticketmaster, while you’re out there arguing BurnLounge will take over Ticketmaster. Should I continue? I don’t want to embarrass you, but to me, you have no clue what’s going on in the digital music space.
I’m not trying to insult you Barry. I’m just telling you the truth and what everyone around me is saying about you and your comments. They think you only care about making money off sign-ups. If that’s what you are solely interested in, then good luck to you, because no on is going to help you.
As an insider in the music biz, let me give you a reality check. People in this business want to know that other people are committed to the idea of moving along the business of music, and not moving along the business of making money in an MLM ponzi-scheme. They want to work with like minded, passionate people who support artists in the communal philosophy of exposing new music to the masses so they can ENJOY IT! What you’re promoting is not the enjoyment of the music people buy from you, but the dollar value you put on every BurnLounger who signs up underneath you. That, my friend, is called GREED, not making money. People who make money, do it by contributing something to society and get something in return. When you operate an MLM, are you really making money, or are you just shifting assets that will one day be argued over in bankruptcy court?
That being said…
For all those who enter in as BurnLounger’s today to sell music and merchandise properly while marketing effectively…good luck to you. I do wish you success. If you use their tools to sell music in the right way to people who want it, then more power to you.
For all those who enter in as BurnLounger’s today to get other people to sign up as moguls so you can win on the back end without lifting a finger to move music forward…you are on my radar and I will continue to write passionately against your success. I think what you are doing is disgusting, misleading and hightly problematic and I just won’t stand for it. It’s my right to debate you and show everyone how you’ll come here to argue about why BurnLounge is so great, but never discuss selling music, which is what the company is supposedly based on.
Tony
December 28th, 2006 at 6:17 pm
To the 8 or 9 people reading this, please put the children in the other room for a moment – - – -
Please don’t gimme that shit about not trying to insult me – go back and re-read your post……. And you’re right, you DO have the right to voice your opinion, as do I in response until you decide that freedom of speech does not apply to me here because I too strongly disagree with you –
As I’ve shown you how many times before already, you don’t know what you’re talking about. How many times do I have to explain the same things over and over again before you’ll understand what’s being said?
“Making money off the backs of those below me” is a PERFECT example. Do you think the people way above me are doing that while they’re traveling all over the country on their own dimes doing group presentations for the guests of the current burnloungers, paying for their own airline tickets and rental cars and hotel rooms and meals and the fees to rent places to give presentations with the audio and video equipment that they bought themselves? If I make myself available to every person I sign up to explain the program to the people they talk to until they’re comfortable doing it on their own and help them on a continual basis, am I taking advantage of those below me? Your physiological incapability to understand what’s going on here or how it works does NOT translate to me being greedy. You simply have no idea what you’re talking about, yet insist on saying the same crap over and over again.
Calling it a “MLM ponzi scheme” is ANOTHER direct example of you being clueless as to this side of the business. If you had any idea what you’re talking about, you’d realize that an MLM program is a DIRECT OPPOSITE OF A PONZI SCHEME. But you obviously don’t know enough about either to speak intelligently about them, YET YOU CONTINUE TO DO SO ANYWAY. TONY, YOU DON’T KNOW WHAT YOU’RE TALKING ABOUT!!!
You did NOT have to tell me about the deal with the tickets, I TOLD YOU ABOUT IT AND THEN YOU LOOKED IT UP AND FOUND AN ARTICLE ABOUT IT. I told you I was NEW to this when I mentioned it, that they had discussed it and that I didn’t know the details. Well give yourself a button, you found an article that showed the agreement had already happened. AND BY THE WAY, I NEVER, NEVER EVEN ONCE SAID THAT BURNLOUNGE WAS GOING TO TAKE OVER TICKETMASTER – ALL I SAID WAS THAT IT WAS GOING TO BECOME AVAILABLE THRU BURNLOUNGE. YOU SAID THAT I SAID IT, BUT IT NEVER HAPPENED. So to the other 9 people who are reading this – go back and look thru the posts yourselves and try to find that I said that Burnlounge was going to take over Ticketmaster, then come back here and post who the delusional one is between Tony and I… The only place where I “said it” was where I criticized you for claiming that I said it. Go ahead, prove me wrong…
I don’t know anything about selling music? I know this, the people in Burnlounge are selling music, and I’ll bet you that in about a year to 18 months Burnounge will become the biggest supplier of digital music in the country. And nobody successful is going to give a damn whether it’s being done Burnlounge’s way, or your way. How about you Tony, are you “selling your music”? I see you’re fishing for donations, so I’m wondering how well YOU’RE doing at it while you espouse your opinions about all that’s wrong in the music world.
You’d be screaming at the top of your lungs about what Tony? Lemme ask you a question – are you smarter than Ticketmaster? Maybe you should be telling Ticketmaster how to run their business, ya think? You mean they had the audacity to not consult with you first????? Unbelieveable…
Ya know, I’ve been trying to keep this factual and not personal, and believe me I’ve read enough of your stuff to have you PEGGED. I’ve been in sales for over 20 years dealing with the self employed and small to medium sized business owners, and you’re like one big open book with really big letters. Maybe in the grand scheme of things YOU’RE the one who doesn’t get the music BUSINESS Tony.
December 28th, 2006 at 7:01 pm
Okay Barry, let me correct a few factual errors:
1) YTD over 160K unique visitors to Netmix.com. That’s a little more than you thought.
2) Freedom of Speech is alive and well. I moderate these responses and I always post your comments, sometimes against my better judgement.
3) Of all those people giving presentations and generating excitment about the BurnLounge revolution, you still don’t seem to address the basic fundamentals of online music marketing and music sales. You continue to talk about how to get people involved, while many of the readers to this column wonder what your true motivations are. Are you in the music business? Or, are you in the business of selling BurnLounge mogulships? Which is it Barrry? What church do you attend? The business of supporting recording artists with your personal efforts to help them achive their goals and dreams, or simply to get a bunch of other people on board underneath you so they can sell music for you, and you sit back and do nothing? Whatever you think I’m psychologically incable of, you seem to be incredibly adept at avoidance. What are you personally doing to drive music sales from your store?
4) A ponzi scheme, by definition from dictionary.com:
I know BurnLounge doesn’t have “fictituous sources,” because I’ve met some of the management team and their web site lists their management team. However, I still maintain there isn’t as much clarity as their should be about how the BurnLounge system operates before you join. It’s only after you buy in that you learn more.
Maybe BurnLounge isn’t a true “ponzi scheme” according to the true meaning of the word, but it certainly does promise profits if you invest your own money in it, and that, to me, touches on ponzi.
5) Barry, let me correct you. You never told me about the deal with Ticketmaster. You simply said, BurnLounge will be selling tickets soon and that they will surpass Ticketmaster in terms of sales because of the power of the BurnLounge revolution.
You never informed me of the partnership between BurnLounge and Ticketmaster. I’d read about it months before your rant, and simply searched for an posted the article to show you what you should have known yourself before you brought it up.
Your inability to research your own investment clearly shows me that you don’t research your investments. If I were an investor in BurnLounge in any way, shape or form. Believe me, I’d be all over Yahoo! News looking for answers before I spent any money.
6) It’s a sad fact Barry, but you’re totally wrong about who cares who is selling music. Artists are a fickle bunch. They don’t want to be treated as a commodity by you, BurnLounge or anyone else for that matter. I have been in and around the music industry since I was 7-years old. I talk to recording artists everyday. I’ve sat on music panels at some of the world’s most influential music industry conferences. I am the VP of Music at StarStyle.com. Barry, I’m sorry to say, but my credentials in music blow yours out of the water. I know more about the digital music business than you may ever know, because I live it and breathe it everyday. In fact, I go to NYU at night for Digital Media Management, where I am a 3.5 GPA student. So, while you try your best to enter the music industry by buying your way in, I am committed to it heart, mind and soul. I know the captains of the industry, and they are forever finding ways to sell music, but they all know that at the end of the day, their artists control the image. There are many top tiers artists now who control what sites they are sold on, and there may already be some who have said no to BurnLounge. So, when you get off your self-important, greedy soap box and come down to the real music industries level, I’ll show you how much people care. That just shows how little you know and how much you need to learn.
7) As far as if I’m selling my music or not. If you knew anything about music licensing, and clearly you don’t or you wouldn’t be trying to diss me, you’d know that I’d have to license every track in my three hour mix sets for between $500 and $5,000 on average in order to sell a mix compilation to the public. In a three hour show, there can be anywhere from 25 to 50 records. That means tens of thousands of dollars in licensing fees. No Barry, I don’t sell my music, because I can’t afford those fees. And, if I do a mix a month, that means every month I have to shell out tens of thousands of dollars.
What I choose to do instead, if pay broadcast royalties through Live 365 for Internet streaming, so the artists I play get paid for each online spin. Of course, you probably don’t know this, because you’re not a record industry guy. So, I suggest you purchase the book, “This Business of Music” and start reading, cause you’ve got a lot to learn.
9) I’m not smarter than Ticketmaster, or I would be Ticketmaster. What kind of insult is that? Can’t you do better?
Tony
December 29th, 2006 at 11:12 am
Thank you for letting me prove that you don’t pay as much attention to my posts when you respond, like I said earlier – I say 1+1=2 and you say no it’s not, it’s red…..
I said the following –
“Your physiological incapability to understand what’s going on here or how it works does NOT translate to me being greedy.”
You responded with –
“Whatever you think I’m psychologically incable of, you seem to be incredibly adept at avoidance.”
I know, you still don’t get it, go back and read it again – - – I used the word “PHYSIOlogically” for a reason, because quite frankly I knew you’d resond to it incorrectly, and you did by saying “PSYCHOlogically”. As I’ve said MANY time here before, you don’t really read what you’re responding to, which is a big part of why you don’t understand this. Oh, you think that’s being petty? Here’s a better example -
” 5) Barry, let me correct you. You never told me about the deal with Ticketmaster. You simply said, BurnLounge will be selling tickets soon and that they will surpass Ticketmaster in terms of sales because of the power of the BurnLounge revolution.”
REALLY TONY, I SAID THAT? GO FIND IT!
On 11/10 at 1:16AM, I posted –
“They also talked about adding movies, ibooks, tickets, ring tones and cell phones/calling plans and more in the not too distant future, some of which obviously would have a higher profit margin than music downloads.”
On 11/18 at 7:15PM I posted –
“And as I’ve also said about a million times, RIGHT NOW it’s just music, but they’re working to expand into movies, ringtones, cell phones, concert tickets, games, ebooks and more. So your thing about people running out of things to download holds ZERO water. Yes, Zero.”
On 11/30 you posted –
“So, Barry, what do you say now?
Let me say this, that even if Ticketmaster opened up ALL TICKETS to BurnLounger’s to sell, Ticketmaster will still sell infinitely more because of, a. Brand Recognition, and b. they’ll sell at the box office and many BurnLoungers won’t move as fast, with many tickets then unavailable to the BurnLounge buyer.
It’s not the cash cow you think, my friend.”
TO WHICH I RESPONDED –
“The way you bring the negative light to things is unbelieveable. Did I ever say that Burnlounge would ever TAKE ON TICKET MASTER AND DRIVE THEM INTO THE GROUND UNTIL THEY BEG TO BE BOUGHT, or did I simply say that one of the products Burnlounge was planning on bringing in was concert tickets? For God’s sake Tony, stop with the drama already. You’re just hell-bent on de-legitimizing this company.”
Please, leave the who said what’s to me – I obviously have a better memory for these things.
If you wanna compare MLMs from ponzis from a physical standpoint, think of it this way – from a marketing and growth standpoint an MLM is shaped like like a typical triangle with the base at the bottom and the point at the top. A ponzi is shaped like an upside down one. And PLEASE, FIND THE SOURCE where you read that Burnlounge “promises profits if you invest your own money in it – SHOW ME WHERE IT SAYS THAT TONY!!! Oh, it doesn’t. So I guess you made it up then?
The Ticketmaster reference wasn’t an insult, although I figured you’d take it that way – it’s part of my “I got you pegged” theory.
How many more times are you going to bring up the ‘making money off of the backs of those below me while sit up here doing nothing” and have me completely explain to you AGAIN AND AGAIN why your charge is incorrect? Do you pay attention at all? Do you even yet know the reason I give in explanation to that? Maybe I should just keep copy and pasting it over and over and over. Maybe after 15 times or so you’ll pick up on it.
Remember, before you respond, 1+1=blue (or was it red?)
January 3rd, 2007 at 9:39 am
Hello to Barry, Tony and Josh,
.To Tony & Josh :
I believe with the fact that 90% of people will not make (back) money with burnlounge . But i guess Barry and his recent referred ‘friend’ will be in the 10% making money selling the ‘packages’.
But one thing is obvious to me, Barry & Josh, you are smart guys having insight view in music field : i would rate you at an virtual IQ of knowing how to do business, let’s say i rate you both at IQ=8 on a scale of 10.
So even you ,both, got caught unfortunately by this MLM Burnlounge story. So think how other people having an IQ lower than you, how easy the temptation for them to get caught by Burnlounge story when they are approached by the skilled sellers like Barry and alike.
So i think Burnlounge , in its current form , will still make money for awhile , on the back of lot of people, by selling packages.
To All :
Did you see Burn Media (owner of Burnlounge) is selling music on theri recent website as low a $.89 a song under some conditions ? I think this is very competitive . And unfortunately , they do it for themself , if only they can offer Burnloung retailer the same thing , i would be nice for you.
See link http://hypster.storeblocks.com/P-1999999396/C-1999998666/eChannel.isl
January 3rd, 2007 at 11:21 pm
Only an 8??? C’mon man……………!
I don’t know about Josh, but I didn’t get “caught” in anything. MLM is a completely legitimate form of marketing that’s been around for many years. And it’s a very intelligent decision by almost any company as their way of doing business. Instead of spending potentially huge amounts of money on advertising and promotion of your product with no guarantee of a return, simply give the guy on the street the ability to get a piece of the pie and we’ll do the marketing FOR you. And don’t look to Tony for any insight into this – he doesn’t understand it at all, and he hates it nonetheless. You don’t have to read too many of his postings to see that he thinks most of the industry has been bastardized by greedy pigs just looking to make a buck…
January 4th, 2007 at 1:04 am
Ha ha!
“Don’t look to Tony…”
That’s a good one.
Don’t listen to the guy who has 25-years of music industry experience, is VP of Music at a web 2.0 company and studies digital media at NYU.
Barry wants you to listen to an insurance salesman who has no prior music industry experience and didn’t research the market before he bought in.
According to a recent Billboard Magazine article, there were just under 200 digital music services in operation this year. The BurnLounger has a lot of competition out there.
If I didn’t know what I was talking about, I wouldn’t be in the position I am today.
Tony Z.
January 4th, 2007 at 2:02 am
From the MLM side of this Tony, you don’t. Not even close. It’s more than just the textbook knowledge of the industry ins and outs that’s in play here. If going to college is floating your boat, that’s fine, but what I’m talking about has zero to do with your nights at NYU.
And what position are you in really? Where’s it getting you? 25 years, where ya at?
January 7th, 2007 at 8:53 pm
So C, based on your 25 year based opinion that in your mind gives you the end-all in what’s right and wrong in the music industry , I guess Rick Dees got suckered too? (You know who Rick Dees is I’m assuming.) The following quote came from the L.A. Business Journal a few weeks ago:
Q: What else does Dees Entertainment do?
A: Three years ago, we noticed that music downloads on the Internet amounted to $45 million or $50 million through the record companies. In 2007, $3.8 billion worth of downloads are going to happen – minimum. Alex Arnold came to me with a company that allows retails to build their won virtual Tower Records on the Internet. It gives you all the rights to the music. You can make your own play lists. It’s called BurnLounge.
We started about a year ago with 11 online retailers. Today we have close
to 70,000 retailers. We’re the second biggest investor after Alex Arnold
and his group. (Arnold is chief executive of BurnLounge, which he founded
with two partners in August 2005″.
My guess is that so far, he feels he made the right decision. And YOUR take is —-? (Boy oh boy I can’t wait to hear this one…)…..
January 7th, 2007 at 11:51 pm
I never said my opinion was the end-all for what’s right or wrong in the music industry. I maintain my position on BurnLounge. Out of the 70,000 retailers Rick Dee quotes in the article, how many are actually active and what’s the “churn” rate? Yes, you can say you’ve got 70,000 people, but how many have dropped out. When someone quotes a number, I want to see proof that those numbers are accurate and how many of those numbers are actively selling. To me, any investor in a company is, of course, going to build it up so it looks better than reality.
Don’t believe everything you read when someone cites stats that can’t be proven to prop up their investment.
And yes, I know who Rick Dees is. If he’s your measure of success in the music business, that’s nice, but that’s not who I want to model myself after. I’d rather be Doug Morris, Steve Jobs or Clive Davis, thank you very much.
Tony Z.
January 8th, 2007 at 2:43 am
By the way, how totally not-ironic that you completely ignored the proof that I did NOT say the things you said I did by simply copy and pasting them into that post for you and all the silent others to see.
YOU SAID that I said that ticket sales thru Burnlounge would surpass Ticketmaster, didn’t you? Have you found where I supposedly said it yet?
YOU SPECIFICALLY SAID that Burnlounge “certainly does promise profits if you invest your money into it”, didn’t you? Have you found the evidence of said promise yet?
Tony, your silent, non-contributing fans are waiting for your response. So am I. C’mon, you can say it Tony, nobody will think less of you. C’mon – we’re all waiting…………….
Oh, and referring back a few posts ago regarding your fans – this message goes directly to them – YOU BUNCHA CHEAPASSES – YOU LIKE THE WORK THE GUY IS DOING HERE? YOU APPRECIATE WHAT HE’S PUTTING TOGETHER FOR YOU? DO YOU REALIZE THAT IT TAKES HIM TIME AND EFFORT AND THAT IT COSTS HIM $MONEY$ TO KEEP IT RUNNING? DO YOU PEOPLE WORK FOR FREE??? THEN WHY DO YOU THINK IT’S OK FOR HIM TO WHILE YOU BENEFIT FROM HIS EFFORTS? HOW ABOUT THROWING HIM A FEW BUCKS FROM TIME TO TIME TO SHOW HIM SOME APPRECIATION – DON’T YOU THINK IT’S SIMPLY THE RIGHT THING TO DO???
Sorry – back on track – still awaiting the response……….
January 11th, 2007 at 12:17 am
Barry:
First, thanks for telling everyone to fund my endeavor. Very kind of you! And, thank for the $50 bucks you dropped in my PayPal account. That was really nice. Make sure you expense it against all your BurnLounge profits!
I didn’t ignore the proof. I just didn’t feel like going back through all the posts, such as you did, to fact check everything. Maybe I should have, but I’ve been kinda busy lately.
See, I have a lot going on. First, we were just on set for the The Game feat. Kanye West video shoot in L.A. to source the styles for StarStyle. We’ll be on set for Fergie on Saturday. I got proposals out to Diddy, Mandy Moore and Joss Stone’s label. Got a lot going on. Haven’t had as much time as I’d like to sit and debate you.
Yesterday, I was interviewed for an article by a reporter from Investor’s Business Daily Investors.com about my experiences using LinkedIn.com. Today, an AP photographer came to my house to shoot me behind the turntables and in the bowels of Grand Central Station for the article.
And, I just finished my semester at NYU. An “A” and an “A-” for the semester. Brings me up to 3.59 GPA.
I also went to Boston for New Year’s Eve.
Needless to say, I wish I had the luxury of time to debate you effectively, but I just haven’t.
Yes, I did say BurnLounge “promise profits.” Maybe that’s a little broad. Did they promise profits at the meeting I went to? I can’t say they promised, but they sure as heck made it sound like once you signed up, the money would be rolling in, without defining how it would roll in.
So, no, they did not “promise” profits. Of course, that’s a figure of speech that you can manipulate to debate me. But everyone who’s ever attended a BurnLounge session knows that they show that video and make it look like a pretty good deal, without giving you a fact sheet. Maybe that’s changed in the 9 months since I’ve been to one. I don’t know, because I probably couldn’t go back to one, since BurnLounge, I’m sure, hates me by now.
Tony Z.
January 11th, 2007 at 1:21 am
You’re welcome regarding the $50. I wasn’t gonna mention it here, but you did so what the hell. I must say I’m VERY surprised that you posted the cheapasses part. That was several days ago and I figured you were stalling on it. I actually just came here to harass you about not doint it yet but you took the frigging wind out of my sails by posting it.
I was serious about the cheapasses thing – although I think you’re entirely too uninformed about burnlounge and MLM to be able to make such negative comments about it, at the same time I don’t like seeing people putting time and effort into endeavors such as this and you’ve got people taking advantage of it (maybe reaping the benefits of it is a better phrase) yet they won’t reach into their pockets to at least help you keep it going. To me that’s just not right. Maybe they know you’re rich and don’t need the money.
I seriously doubt that Burnlounge hates you. You may find this hard to believe, but they’re actually still signing people up in spite of you. Like it or not, your opinion of this is going to change over time. You can’t say that you have exactly the same opinion of it now as compared to a couple of months ago. For example, you now know that it’s actually the oppoiste of what a Ponzi scheme is.
Version 2.0 comes out in a few weeks and it’s supposed to have additional features available. I’ll of course happily keep you updated. Besides, you know that you’re curious.
BTW, your zip code only has 6 Burnloungers in it – you still have time to get in…
January 12th, 2007 at 11:59 pm
this is Rickkkkkkkkkkkkk Deez-nutz-in-your-mouth, and i just wanted to point out that out of the 70,000 retailers under my pyramid, a vast majority of them were recruited through my personal myspace page. I consider these recruits as friends, and eventhough i do not have a “top 70,000 list on myspace, i value their friendship as well as appreciate the revenues the provide for me. As for their “splits” F*&k’em, im Rick Deeeez bitch, who cares about splits, its all about the music baby, nothin else.
*actual poster not Rick Dees*
in all seriousness, wouldnt you recommend to an artist, DJ, or producer to form his own BL site and use BL’s brand equity and marketing/sales/strategies along with the foundation of its software to promote the artists talents? or would you consider an already established social base, like that of a myspace music profile, as a better platform of which to market and sell to its fans integrating a “paypal” or some other funds transfering system? or would it be stupid to have one and not the other, if not more and more……as in networking, through the help of MLM, to promote, share, distribute, and ultimately profit from your own music?
if MLM is in all practicality originating, brokering, re-originating and re-brokering a single idea or product, can you really blame the originator(in this case, an artist) for spreading his/her music through the instrument that BL provides?
i know that the downsides you preach apply to the suedo entrepeneurs and so forth, but do you forsee any negatives for up and coming artist that could use the marketing support of BL?
January 13th, 2007 at 1:22 am
Barry:
I’m glad BurnLounge is signing up people. That’s great. The more people they sign-up, the harder the company falls when the time comes. Yippee!
I’m still not convinced. Your argument only takes into consideration sign-up fees. How much have you personally made in music sales since you started? Isn’t that the point of BurnLounge, the product? Or, is it all based on selling others on the concept?
And, I do know a lot about BurnLounge. As much as I’ve read on their web site, which is why I have a huge problem with BurnLounge. They need to change their terms of service, and then I’ll at least give them credit for doing something to be honest and upfront about their program.
To Rick Dees:
It’s great that artist’s can benefit through the BurnLounge system. But my question is this: if everyone is running around selling mogul packages to each other, then what happens to the artists? They get lost in the fact that they’re not being promoted effectively, or their being merchandised incorrectly against other artists who they may or may not want to be lumped in with.
If they have their own BurnLounge store, why pay good money when they can launch their own shop through SnoCap/MySpace partnership and have only their music on their page, instead of having a BurnLounge store and having to compete with other artists? I mean, as a band, isn’t the point to promote yourself and not everyone else?
If I’m a band, I’m using CD Baby or SnoCap. There are a few other new services out there too. BurnLounge is not the be all or end all for bands to promote themselves and sell downloads. Especially since the company only supports Windows Media DRM files, and can’t support MP3 or endure the wrath of the record industry.
With SnoCap/MySpace, a band’s tracks can be downloaded as MP3. That’s a bigger advantage, and without having to pay an upfront fee. Web services should be free to the individual band and or artist, with a small percentage taken off the top. Why pay a sign-up fee?
Also, BurnLounge touts an Internet Explorer-only environment. If I’m an indy band, why do I want to support Microsoft technology?
There are so many reasons for Indy bands and artists to look elsewhere for digital distribution.
Tony
January 13th, 2007 at 3:37 am
Has BurnLouge offered its services to the Nigerians yet? i think its time those charming african entrepeneurs get into a piece of this multibillion dollar action.
I do however think its a good idea alsong as BL continues to provide a solid and adaptive infasctucture along with ongoing promotions and marketing campaigns to help support and encourage individual BL sales. It is certainly a great idea to offer their “pyramid” approach with respect to rampid business expansion, however it is ultimatley up to Johny Affiliate to make his initial investment and will also be his judgment call to take on and recriut new affiliates………..its certainly an easy idea to sell, and cheap enough for most baller-on-a-budget-fake-it-till-you-make-it’s to see a potential income stream from simply selling what everybody loves; music.
unfortunately i know very little of MLM and am only aware of its negative press. However, from my experience in the sales industry, i know that there is an unlimited pool of “suckers” that will easily grasp(not too mention relate to the products) BL’s business approach and potentially spread false promises of unlimited and exponential revenue… but wait, it is “unlimited” to a certain extent, and i would speculate(only based on the amount of hype and media that BL has created) that their market share will expand, along with the other digimusic retailers, to the ceiling of what that represents current music album sales, and eventually the “convenience factor” will allow music sales to expand.
Im still trying to grasp the “failure” factor of MLM as it pertains to the expansive world of branded digital music retailers when this is the way the music industry is heading without any real threats of a “peaking” in business followed by a void in sales stemming from the next big breakthrough…………and if BL allows itself to expand and infiltrate a market through Johny Affiliate’s, than certainly they can afford to stay ontop of new trends that lie ahead in the music industry.
i like the idea, but only becuase it recognizes a clearly evident change in the way music is purchased and offers a very versatile appraoch in the way its marketed……what better way to market music in differnet and effective ways than to have different types of people sell to those they share common interests with? shit, i guess that question would apply to any product/service and i would just be incriminating myself as a MLM supporter…..So i guess im not good for much other than speculation.
January 13th, 2007 at 6:48 am
Rick Dees:
By the way, because there are so many posts about BurnLounge here, you may not have gone back through the thread and read that I’m not against the concept of BurnLounge. What I am railing against is THE WAY they’ve gone about developing the concept. From their flashy videos, half-truths and questionable marketing tactics to the inability of BurnLounge to control the marketing messages spread by their exuberant moguls, some of who might compare BurnLounge to the second coming of Christ if you listen to them long enough.
When it comes to pitching BurnLounge, some of their moguls seem to be right up there with the Nigerians. There is little truth, because they don’t bother to let anyone know the downside in their program.
When it comes to reporting on the financial markets, reporters generally disclose their investments. That being said, when BurnLoungers sell others on the concept, shouldn’t it be clear that it’s a Windows Media only platform? Shouldn’t there be a money-back policy if they don’t think it’s right for them after they’ve bought in? Shouldn’t there be a central marketing department or 1-800 number for BurnLoungers who have questions or need support?
You see, it’s not BurnLounge’s concept. The promotion and distribution of music is at the core of what I do everyday. I do think it’s a good idea. It’s the way they execute it I don’t agree with.
It’s that simple.
So, no matter what Barry writes to say that I don’t understand MLM and that I have no idea what I’m talking about. He will never address the real issues, becauase he knows that if he admits there are problems with the way they’ve set up their business, then it’s all downhill from there.
Barry wants to prop up his investment, and that’s fine. But I disagree with him on the fundamentals.
Here’s what I would have agreed to, and where I think BurnLounge made a tactical error.
First, I would have partnered with a company to have my legions of BurnLoungers sell a low-cost, competitive player that works with the BurnLounge store. BurnLounger’s customers should be able to purchase both the physical hardware and the downloads, not just the downloads. Second, I would have put in the marketing message that BurnLounge is a competing format to Apple with a competitive audio technology that allows them to social network around music, which is what the Zune is trying to be. With legions of people selling the music players on the street, maybe the idea would have taken hold. Then the music comes first because people have more incentive to fill their players, since they have them in their hands.
There’s a lot more I would have done, but for now, these points are my contribution, for whatever it’s worth.
I’d write more, but I’m tired and need to get some rest.
Tony
January 13th, 2007 at 5:14 pm
Tony who you foolin’ – you haven’t been critical of the MLM side of Burnllounge? Are you kidding? You’ve called it a pyramid scheme, you’ve called it a Ponzi scheme, you’ve made numerous comments about the people at the top sitting on their backsides doing nothing while all us schleps at the bottom make them all their money, you’ve commented on all the poor people at the bottom who will never make any money because there’s nobody left to recruit – what do you call that, being complimentary?
January 14th, 2007 at 12:14 am
Barry:
I remain critical of the MLM side of the business, because I’m not a proponent of the way it’s currently structured.
If everyone were equal and all shared revenues with only the parent, as a franchiser would, then I’d be for it. All would be on equal ground with the main company and to me, that’s fair.
Tony
January 15th, 2007 at 2:38 am
Then you’ll never be a fan of ANYTHING that has a multi level structure in it, which like it or not it’s very short-sighted on your part. MLM beats franchises in so many ways. Most people cannot afford to buy a franchise of any kind, but most people CAN afford to buy into a multi level marketing plan. Quite frankly it’s easier to be successful in MLM because you’re working more with the power of numbers instead of being more on your own. More sales people = more teamwork = more success. It’s undeniable.
Here’s a great example of the team concept that I was just introduced to last week. I’m in a business networking group called BNI. We have about 20 people in our group. We did an exercise where we were in 3 teams. First we were to each individually make a list of the things you can do with a newspaper, practical or “impractical”, in like 3 minutes. I came up with like 9. We were to then make a list with the additional ideas from the people in our groups. In my group we had like an additional 14 ideas that I hadn’t thought of, which took it to 23. We then added the additional ideas of 1 other group, which took the total to like 34. Then we added the additional ideas from the 3rd group and the total came to about 47. So, 9 ideas of my own vs. 47 ideas from the entire group. THAT’S MLM Tony. MLM is a lot more of a team effort than buying a franchise. MLM is not perfect, I understand that – but it gives a helluva lot more people the ability to create a business for themselves than anything else out there.
January 21st, 2007 at 3:39 pm
Barry ….. How do we even know you actually MADE your money back? I could easely say I made $500 Plus, I could even say my friend made $8000 …. that means crap, no proof!
My friend joined BL and this was 3mths into the company, he invited me 4th mth into BL still very new …… means crap! He got 1 person under him …. worked his A$$ of to get a 2nd person in …. which you need to have the B side to make ANY money. His A side grew, but never got anyone on his B side. I was skeptical, becasue his friend who got him in was at the top ….yeah, he wa making $$$$$. That is why his A side grew.
And to Tony! I agree, They do NOT tell you everything at the meetings …. ti is nothing but a celebrity hyped vip only PARTY!!! Yes, party, here in Los Angeles, it was all about networking in a group of “entertainment comunity” based atmosphere. Not once did they mention ANYTHING about the real breakdowns of the money. I had no clue, that is why I did NOT give them my 400 + … as much as my friend tried his hardest, I didn’t have 400 to throw away. I went to 4 “party events” (aka into meetings) and not once did I fully understand the break down and neither did my freind. I only JUST found out on this site about the $20 a mth to keep your site. Not once did they mention that! All they kept saying … join to top and get 2 people under you and sit back and watch your $$$ grow. “oh, you don’t even have to sell any downloads… just sit back and do “nothing and you can become rich.
To me, it as all about promoting through the top celebrity’s who were involved, so if they are doing it, IT’S GOTTA BE A GOOD DEAL! Bull sh!t. They were only looking ater themselfs (the big guys) They didn’t care if any of “us” made any money, becasue if we all gave them 400+, they would make all the $$$$$. I never ever once got any of my concerns answered. half the time you couldn’t even hear them speak, because they had so many people cramed into a hip bar with everyone drinking and chatting …. you couldn’t even hear them. Sure great way to hype the BL …. get everyone drunk and talk about the celebrity status. I know way to many people that NEVER got there 2nd person to buy in, which means ZILCH! way too many people lost that 400+ and never even continued. I own a Mac Ibook …. I couldn’t even get onto anyones BL site. Mac doesn’t even alow it. How many people who own a mac joined only to find out they couldn’t even log onto there site? After 4 meetings ….. that fact was NEVER EVER mentioned.
Good for you Barry, if you made you $$$ back ….. how many of your freinds $$$ did you take and out of that how many actually were able to get that 2nd person to join?
You can’t say the reason it doesn’t work for some is that they didn’t try is why they didn’t make there money back. I even busted my a$$ to get people to join. I wasn’t about to put my $400+ out there if I couldn’t get 2 people under me.
Barry you “may have” made you $$ back, but I think 8 out of 10 don’t. I went to 4 meetings and never got all the facts. That is what makes BL BS! They take your money without filling you in on all the rules and money facts.
BL is VERY MISLEADING! Like Tony said “if it sounds too good to be true…than it really is! Good concept, but with no INTEGRITY to back it up! Just glad I didn’t waste my $400 + dollars. Like I said, I know many people who didn’t make there money back!
Good luck to all involved!
Barry, you are just plain ignorant! You only see what you want to see. BL is misleading , it’s no wonder they don’t have an 800 # ….That alone doens’t take a rocket scientist to figure out why. It’s a scam when you don’t get all the facts BEFORE you pay to join.
This was based on my experience only!
January 21st, 2007 at 11:37 pm
Kelly, at least you followed your post with the fact that it was based on your own experience, and I can only speak for mine.
Frankly it doesn’t matter to me whether you believe that I’ve made money or not. Believe it, don’t believe it – that’s up to you. I’m not trying to recruit anyone here, so what reason do I have to lie? And I wouldn’t lie anyway, as I do believe in karma.
The meetings I’ve been to were DEFINITELY ran a lot better than the meetings you’ve been to. And the programs have been described in detail. It’s too bad that you didn’t have it that way. The introductory rah rah meetings are not the place to describe every little nuance of the program, that’s what the people who brought you to it are for. This company is definitely doing their part to train people by the way of emails, attachments, webinars, local events etc. They just had a 2 day event here.
My opinion is that it will be a lot easier to bring people in once the additional products and services are added into it.
In closing, you don’t know me well enough to call me ignorant. The true “bullshit” of your post lies in the fact that you think that these people don’t care if you make money – that can’t be further from the truth. The whole reason why they’re doing meetings in the first place is because if someone takes you to a meeting, and you sign up from being there, then the person who brought you is making more money than the person doing the meeting. Do you not understand that? The meetings are helping the local people just as much as those at the top. You obviously don’t know MLM.
January 23rd, 2007 at 5:17 pm
Who gives this guy a blog in the first place. Man you arent making any money on this site yet you oppose those who are trying to make a buck. Ironic, if i must say so myself. I paid the 150.00 fee and in that same day, with a bit of small talk to my friends and people who wanted to take a chance on 150.00, I found myself making that money back. 1 day! Now, you can try to criticize me or accuse me of lying, but you may email me if you like and I will explain to you the way the system is suppossed to work. But if you are interested in BL, dont let this guy and his C rated blog disuade you from trying to make a buck. When I said 1 day, I meant 1 day…24 hours. Paid 150.00 made 200.00. Very basic accounting. You still have to work to make your money. Ben
bencarneva@yahoo.com
January 23rd, 2007 at 10:52 pm
Ben:
It’s so “C” level, you’ve graced us with your presence. Much appreciated. This blog is a much better place to visit now that you’ve added your two cents, which is about the money you make on each download from all of those customers you should have by now.
You paid $150 to make $50. That’s super impressive. We’re all real proud of you. I want to be on that train.
Tony
January 24th, 2007 at 1:47 pm
1 day is the point man…1 day.
January 24th, 2007 at 6:49 pm
Ben:
You spent $150 to make $50 for one day’s worth of work. Working an eight-hour day, that’s a little over $6 an hour. Big numbers! You can make more than that working at Wendys or McDonalds. You can even make more than that at Starbucks, AND you’ll get health insurance, which jumps your weekly pay a bit more.
Saying that you made 50 bucks from one of your friends signing up means absolutely nothing to anyone in the music business. Tell me how many downloads you sold of a specific artist, tell me how much you made off music sales, tell me what artists are moving off your home page–then I’ll be much more impressed.
You see, my friend. You’re not in it to sell music, but to sell mogulships to other unsuspecting suckers. It’s not the music you care to sell. It’s not the artists you want to support. It’s the money you want to make by exploiting others weaknesses.
To me, that’s not a fundamental business proposition. It’s a pyramid. You buy a mogul package, then the next two buy from you and so on. No where does it say in your post that you care about supporting recording artists with record sales. You only care to get your money back and make more money by getting others to sign up for the program, so you can get a commission.
To tell you the truth, people who do that make me sick to my stomach. You’re not in the music business, Ben. You’re in the pyramid sales business. Don’t deny it either. You and the people like you could care less about selling downloads. All you want to do is sell subs to other people, who you hope sell subs to their network.
You people disgust me. Seriously, you do. No one ever talks about the music. They only talk about how you can make money selling Burnlounge subs to other people. C’mon Ben, get a life, bro. Do something that makes a difference in the world, instead of selling someone else’s idea of reality. I think it’s a joke, and I stand by that. Your belief that you made money is shortsighted and unfortunate. What did it cost you to get to the place to have that discussion with your first client? What did it cost you to have lunch that day, to put a roof over your head and gas in your car?
Aren’t those expenses tied to what you made that day? Of course they are, but you lack the business skills to know what’s profit and what’s cost. Fortunately, I understand ROI, and what you’re saying is nothing of the sort.
Good luck with your delusion.
Tony Z.
January 25th, 2007 at 1:47 am
Tony, there ya go calling it a pyramid again. We’ve been thru that already, remember? A little refresher – pyramids have no product. This does. And as Ben also knows, they’re right around the corner from having more products. Are you gonna have the same opinion when all the other products are included?
Tony I think we’re a little alike in one way for absolutely sure – if I’m interested in something, my brain is like a sponge. I don’t even have to take notes. My guess is that you’re like that when it comes to music. But if I’m NOT interested in something but have to learn it anyway, you’d have a hard time getting me to understand it if you drilled a hole in my skull and forced the information in with a pile driver. When it comes to MLM Tony, you’re absolutely that way. To a huge degree.
I can’t wait until there are several other products involved here so you can maybe get off the “you don’t care about the music” schpiel already…
January 25th, 2007 at 3:38 pm
2007 is the year of Burnlounge!
I have been a retailer for the last six weeks and my experience with the support system has been excellent. I have always gotten a quick response from the support center for the few times that I have needed their help. I have a great upline that is very helpful and available any time I need them. I have had several conversations/training sessions with one of the founders of the company and can text him or call him anytime.
March-April is when BL goes international and is when the largest movie selection will be available through BL stores. Ring tones, tickets, television content, ebooks and more through the coming months. Before this time next year, content to cell phones and cell phone subscriptions will be sold through BL stores.
I understand your concerns, Tony. I was aware of the compensation model beforehand and I feel comfortable with the support that I receive.
Todd
January 25th, 2007 at 9:26 pm
Todd:
I’m glad someone has finally posted the word “retailer.” It’s taken so long for this thread to achieve that milestone.
Todd, the only people who have posted here seem to only be interested in signing up other people, and have little interest in actual sales of products.
Please tell us what your experiences have been and if anyone is buying digital music from you and how you have changed the music paradigm with your efforts.
You see, that’s what I want to hear. I want to find out who is actually using BurnLounge to sell downloads, how many are being sold and if not being iTunes friendly is impacting the business.
You say that you’ve had several conversations and trainings. Why you and not others?
Tony
January 25th, 2007 at 10:41 pm
BL has something for everyone. If you want to come to my store and buy some tunes, buy movies, spoken word messages, etc. then you can do that for just the cost of the product you want. No other fees. If you want to have your own BL store, you can do that for only $29.95 a year. This allows you to feature what you want to feature on your store. You can filter out types of music that you dont want to promote (you wont find this feature on iTunes I don’t think). You earn reward points for those purchases that you are already making and you can earn reward points for any purchase that your friends and family make from you. Those reward points can then be redeemed for free music, sermons, tickets, video games etc. If you want to turn this into a serious business, then you can do that to. The choice is yours to make. No pressure, no gimmicks, it is for you to decide how you want to do it.
I am a busy person as it is (I wont bore you with all the details), so I have not spent a hundred hours marketing this at this time. In the little time that I have spent on this, I have brought three people into BL and they at this point have already brought in one couple. So for the little time that I have put forth, things are going well as far as I am concerned.
I have had purchases from my wife, mother-in-law and a few friends already. I have found several albums that I used to have as a kid that I lost the tape or album to years ago and have been thrilled to be able to find those within the 2 + million songs that are available in MY store. I get credit for the purchases that I make as well as on those from other people. When I used to go to Walmart, Best Buy, etc. to buy a cd, all I received at the end of that transaction was the cd and only sometimes a thanks from the clerk. Now I can get those from myself and get rewarded financially from that transaction.
So, at the moment, I don’t have a thousand people under me buying thousands of songs, but I will. The purchases that my mother-in-law, friends and wife made would never have happened before because they bought songs that they wanted and those songs are not available at Tower records (out of business) or Walmart(only sells what’s hot at the moment). They did happen, however, because they know me, they know that I will stand behind the purchase and they like the choices that I provide them through my store.
BL is about relationships and the bringing back of the corner record store where you could trust the opinion of the shop owner about a new record. You knew the person well enough to make purchases based on their recommendation because you knew they were as big of a music fan as you were.
Version 2.0 is being launched in March. When this happens, all independant music will be iPod compatible so I have been told. By 3Q this year all major label music on BL will be iPod compatible.
I believe that this is a moot point because within a year’s time or two, iPods will probably not be around like they are today. Look at just about every product that Apple has put out. What kind of market share do they have after a few years of a product’s existance? The mac market share is around 8-10% at best. I am not an expert on Apple, but I do remember reading through the years about certain products and you see the same pattern over and over. When I go to Wal-mart there are more and more choices for MP3 players. You are not locked in to an iPod any more. My two sons have two differnet brands of MP3 players, neither of which are iPods. They both have songs on those that I got for them off of BL (satirical comment when referring to Weird Al’s newest track White and Nerdy. ha ha)
BL 2.0 will also launch with the largest collection of movies anywhere.
BL 3.0 will be a cell phone client and will allow me to sell renewal contracts and other downloads straight to phones and I get paid for all of it.
As far as the conversations/trainings, there are weekly scheduled training calls that are available for anyone to listen in on. There are weekly introduction calls that prospects can listen to. Anyone can participate in these trainings, they are available to all. These times and numbers are public knowledge. Specifically regarding the calls to one of the founders that I have had the honor to be involved in, I suppose its because of the relationship that I had with the person that brought me into BL. This person has a close working relationship with one of the founders, an initial introduction phone call was made to me early on, he has been willing to talk to my prospects at a moments notice and really wants to help me as much as possible. He does this with many, many people that are part of his team. This cofounder has 13000 stores under him and he has taken time out of his busy schedule several times now to talk to little ol’ me; retailer with only four people under me at this point. From what I hear, he does this with other people too.
As far as no telephone number for people to call, that has been addressed and I believe a number is being setup as I type this. BTW, my dealings with the email support has been great.
As far as the requirement for minimum purchases for each store each month, it can come from me or from any one of my customers. I do my best to tell people about this before hand. I have no problem telling people about the costs and showing them/telling them all the information available. I do not pressure them or make them do this. I invite them to listen to calls, watch videos that are available, etc. to properly educate them before they sign up.
No pressure sales from me and my team. You either get it or you don’t. It is fine with me either way. There is a wave coming and I am going to ride that wave all the way to the top. If I can remember to do so, I will find this site in a years time (like you have suggested time and time again) and tell you all about it.
Nokia, Cadillac and Logitech are all corporate sponsors. Elvis Presley Enterprises, Danica Patrick, Dale Earnhardt Jr., Shaq, Brian Mcknight, Rick Dees, Terrell Owens, Matt Williams and more are retailers because they see the power in what is going on. If you want to get in, check my store out at http://www.burnlounge.com/mydigitalsuperstore and lets build us a team. ha ha
I know you don’t agree with everything that has gone on in the past. I hope that we can continue to have a civil discussion of what BL is and what it is striving to become.
Respectfully…
Todd
January 26th, 2007 at 1:57 am
C’mon Tony, gimme a break here – are you gonna sit there in front of your keyboard and tell me after all the posts I’ve done talking about the various products that this company will be adding in the near future that there’s been no discussion of retail????? Are you kidding me?????????
How many times have I mentioned the ongoing training Tony? How many?
And you wonder why people get frustrated?
February 2nd, 2007 at 2:18 pm
I’ve just been asked to attend a BL meeting and decided to do some research on it before going. Tony, thanks for the site and thank you to everyone who has posted their opinions.
Trying to be as pragmatic about the opportunity as possible, one must take an objective look at the business model – i.e.; the MLM commissions, the product, competition, the available served market, start-up cost and marketing.
> MLM Commissions
There’s been talk here about Amway, Mary Kay etc. The funny thing about these MLMs is that they sell consumable products. For BL, once a song is bought there’s no need (theoretically) for the same person to buy again. So for every one person who downloads, there will be an eventual tipping point. Those companies also sell products that are a lot more costlier than $0.99. So the BL-er needs to sell exponentially in volume to compare themselves to the Amway’s of the world – from a sheer commission standpoint. To make $100/day (not a very lofty goal) one needs 2,000 downloads/day at $0.05 each (the generous side of what’s been discussed). Sheer commissions remember. My vote on this issue – No Confidence.
> The Product
For now, as far as I know, music is the product. There are promises for other products but as of yet they are unavailable. When will they be available? These postings started back at the beginning of ‘06 and still nothing. My vote on promises – No Confidence
There’s an issue about compatibility. Beta Max vs. VHS type stuff. Right now we’re in the middle of the HD-DVD and Blu-ray fight. Who will win out no one knows but it’s not going to be the guy who makes it difficult to use, find and especially license. A far superior format lost out to VHS for these reasons. That’s why I think Sony will win this one. They took it in the ass on Beta Max and they are not likely to let that happen again. Even though Apple fits the “hard to license” mold, their iPods have become ubiquitous. This means that the BL business model initially starts with a disadvantage. Not exactly the smartest move when developing a business model.
Another issue is the bit rate. What is the bit rate? With P2P you can hunt out bit rates and download a higher quality recording. This is why I have a Nomad player. I could not find information on the iPod’s signal-to-noise ratio. If BL is marketing themselves as the “audiophile’s site” that is a competitive advantage. If not, it’s the me-too 128 bit rate stuff and I haven’t seen anything about it being an “audiophile” site so my vote – No Confidence.
> The Competition
Everyone knows who the competition is with the big name players, so the question comes down to what is BL’s competitive advantage? Unfortunately, I don’t see one. The price is the same, the quality is the same, service seems to be an iffy thing and there’s no differentiation between my BL site and any of the 1,000s of other BL sites except the songs I want to promote. And then I can’t even advertise that fact. No Confidence.
> The Available Served Market
As stated earlier, the available served market is automatically cut by 70% due to compatibility issues. Why would anyone start from a position of weakness and on top of that compete for the remaining 30% with all of your neighbors and with no competitive advantage? No Confidence.
I’m not even going to get into start up costs and marketing because it’s already a loser. The only way to make money with this is to sign people up as a mogul. If that’s what you like to do who needs BL? You can do that with any MLM company. I’m a Capitalist so I prefer to succeed or fail due to my efforts, not those of others. Isn’t Socialism another word for MLM?
February 2nd, 2007 at 10:12 pm
Tino:
Thank you for your kind note about the blog. I’m glad that I could provide a forum for everyone to air their comments.
I agree with your points wholeheartedly and wonder why BurnLoungers can’t see what you and I see?
Tony
February 2nd, 2007 at 10:39 pm
Good questions – here are some answers. Gotta hit the last one first though. Socialism and MLM in the same sentence? Not even close to close. Aside from purely self employed people, there isn’t a company or business out there that’s not totally dependent on the efforts of others. But in MLM, everyone gets the chance to make something out of themselves. Now granted, the ones earlier in have a greater chance, but how’s that different from a whole host of other companies out there? MLM is a TOTALLY viable way of doing business. Companies are smart to distribute their products that way because they never have to incur most of the costs to hire and train and fire and maintain a sales force, nor do they have to incur the huge marketing expenses that especially a newer company gets nailed with. MLM is truly Capitalistic – which by the way is one of the reasons why Tony hates it. Tony’s take on MLM is that the people at the top sit on their backsides on their thrones while the newbie slaves do the work. Completely untrue. The big earners in this company are selling and pitching and consulting and promoting and helping others do the same on almost a non-stop basis.
As far as products are concerned – stay tuned. Many more things will become part of Burnlounge, starting sometime this month. What they’re saying is that in time, the music will be the lowest profit product they have. That will make it even more Capitalistic, which will make Tony blow a vein. It wouldn’t surprise me if Burnlounge becomes one of the largest download sources in the country within the next year ot two. While this company is growing like crazy, it’s still in its fledgling stages as compared to where it’ll go. And again, version 2.0 gets introduced this month. Compare AOL 1.0 to AOL 9.0 and tell me if it improved or not.
Yes, part of the commission earnings comes from signing up moguls. And the problem with that is??? Everybody knows that coming in. It’s no secret. It’s MLM.
Tony’s heart is in the right place (sorta), but he doesn’t understand why the MLM side of it makes it work and therefore he resents it based on that lack of understanding. But for the technical part of what you asked, my guess is he knows the answers.
February 2nd, 2007 at 11:28 pm
Good’ol Barry…
It was less than ten minutes after I posted Tino’s comment that Barry posted a reply. My man is on it!
Barry, I really do love that you’re so passionate about BurnLounge, and maybe you have changed some people’s minds with your positioning statements.
As far as I not understanding MLM, that’s debatable.
One thing is for sure. I checked the Alexa stats on Burnlounge and their web traffic has been steadily declining since their big announcement last Spring into early Summer. Now, I know Alexa is not a perfect measuring stick, but it certainly does provide an indicator of a site’s overall popularity.
Their page views have gone from over 2 Million a day to less than 1 Million a day in the last 6 months. So, that begs the question. With all these new BurnLoungers signing up, why is traffic dipping by more than half?
Tony
February 3rd, 2007 at 7:45 am
Last weigh-in. The BL developers have created an ingenious MLM model in the respect that they are using a product that people are passionate about. Who gets passionate about lip gloss? There’s an emotional investment like no other in the MLM field and it can be seen on this and other blogs. But, at the end of the day it is an MLM. There is no money to be made in the downloads. Signing up “moguls” is the only way to make any money – and isn’t that the purpose of the whole thing? So the product becomes irrelevant. They can make as many promises as they want about new products, and they may even come out with some. But it won’t matter.
Additionally, the deck is stacked against you in the sign up process. BL has something called “Roll-Up” in their contract (terms of business on line in a PDF file). Roll-Up is the following: A signs up B, B signs up C1, C2 and C3. If B drops out, C1, C2 and C3 roll-up to A’s level. What this means is that the two tiers below you flatten out to your level and the guy above you reaps the benefit. Therefore there is a continual recruiting process because of the high attrition rate.
Am I sorry I “missed” the Amway boat? No. Am I sorry I “missed” the Mary Kay boat? No. Am I going to be sorry that I “missed” the BL boat? No. That’s because an MLM is an MLM and the product becomes irrelevant to the continual recruiting process. Remember, it’s about making money. If this is how you want to do it go for it and good luck.
February 3rd, 2007 at 2:51 pm
Tino
A, B, C…too confusing for me. Hey, that rhymes!
I’m right there with you. The amount of downloads you have to sell to break even (abougt 14,000 if you’ve bought the mogul package), and the fact that the Roll Up you speak of puts more power in the hands of the guy/girl who signed up mogul A, is very problematic for me.
Thanks for your clear position and opinions on this subject. I hope it has enlightened a few people who weren’t sure about what they are getting themselves into.
Tony
February 3rd, 2007 at 3:23 pm
The timing was just a random thing – I don’t think I checked it before that point yesterday, maybe once in the morning.
Ya know that’s a very good question that I don’t have the answer to -
February 3rd, 2007 at 3:41 pm
Tino you don’t understand what the roll up actually is. It’s a good thing, not a bad one. The product purchase part of the program goes 6 levels below you. The roll up means that say someone 2 or 3 levels below you drops out, that spot gets refilled by the person below the one who dropped. Everyone below the person who drops out “rolls up” a notch to fill the gap. That means that you’re now benefitting from someone you weren’t before because he or she was on your 7th level, but is now on your 6th. It’s called Compression. And everyone benefits from it if it does occur because it simply closes the gaps. It’s standard MLM 101. Every legitimate MLM company incorporates that into their programs.
Meanwhile you have Tony thanking you for a clarification that was actually inaccurate….
Tino if you don’t like MLM as a rule – hey that’s your right. MLM is nothing more than people being given the ability to create their own sales forces. And EVERY company that has a sales force is also continually recruiting anyway, so what’s the difference really? Well actually the difference is hugely in the favor of the MLMers, both the participants AND the company. Sorry, but there’s no denying it, except by the people who don’t understand it or just don’t like sales in the first place.
February 3rd, 2007 at 7:53 pm
Tony, in answer to your question – burnlounge.com is not the site people go to for the explanation of the plan. You can’t sign up there or anything. If you go to yourburnteam.com, which is where the tutorials and so on are, the page views per viewer have gone up 29% in the last 3 months, the reach per million has gone up 14% in the last 3 months, and site the ranking has increased by 123,878 in the last 3 months…….
Any more questions????????????????????????????
February 5th, 2007 at 10:41 am
Tony, something I’ve noticed so blatently about you – if someone makes a comment that feeds your negative opinions about this company you’re more than happy to oblige with commentary and gratitude, but just like above, where you posted a legitimate question about the website and I gave you the direct explanation – nothing…. Why is that?
February 6th, 2007 at 12:33 am
So I take it that you’re just not going to answer my question, that you’re just going to ignore the fact that while you asked a question that you thought would add to the negative view of this company, that it failed because the answer was completely legitimate. Am I correct Tony?
February 7th, 2007 at 3:01 pm
Look at the artists and others already involved with Burnlounge. They are on to something.
http://www.burnlounge.com/jmy
February 7th, 2007 at 9:22 pm
Barry:
First, I’ve been mad busy. I was in LA for Music 2.0 last week and haven’t had a spare minute until now to respond to your comment.
My reply is that I checked your URL at Alexa.com and there are no readily available stats for that URL. It really doesn’t matter to me how many people checked that URL, because that URL is mainly for BurnLounge REPS and NOT BurnLounge CUSTOMERS!
Who cares if a whole bunch of BurnLoungers are checking their b2b site. That’s no indicator of success. I’m looking for numbers on e-commerce. Real users making real transactions.
I could care less that more and more people are signing up for BurnLounge. If that’s the point, then all the people on my side are correct. The only way you can make any money is by signing up new registrants to the game, and keep building that pyramid of users rolling underneath you.
So, it’s not that I have been silent, it’s just that I’ve been busy. Your facts don’t impress me one bit. Sure, you may have somewhat explained the Roll Up scheme better than Tino, but Tino is basically talking about a variation on the same thing. When one person leaves underneath you, another moves up to take that persons place, and now you have that person and his/her people. But, what if that person only has one other person?
This whole house of cards is just too much for me. I’d rather do business the old fashioned way. This MLM thing is just too troublesome, because you LOSE CONTROL of the MESSAGE. Your marketing is inconsistent and your product has incredibly slim margins. Not sure if you noticed this, but cell phone sales have leveled off in this country. If you’re looking to make your money on telecom, look at Excel? Where are they now. Went bankrupt and then had to sell at a huge loss to another company and they’re virtually non-existent now.
Barry, no matter what you tell me about MLM, I will always fervently deny you any agreement in principle. I don’t believe in it. I think it’s the poor man’s way of getting up and doing the hard work.
If you think MLM is so great, then why aren’t their any MLB companies in the Fortune 500? Not that I checked or anything, but I don’t recall anyone ever saying there was.
Why don’t you check for me? You tell me, what PURE MLM company is CONSISTENTLY breaking billions in sales and is in the Fortune 500. I’m not talking about companies that own MLM companies as a side business. I’m talking about a pure MLM-play.
Oh wait…I just checked the Fortune 500 list for 2006 and found Avon. They have over 5 million individual reps spanning the globe. Okay…so, I’ll give you one…our of 500?
That just goes to show that BurnLounge, with the profit margins on cell phone subs, ticket sales and music, will never have a chance to reach those lofty heights.
Tony
February 7th, 2007 at 11:34 pm
It is absolutely, utterly amazing how you try to find the absolute worst part of everything – “what if that person only has one other person” – WHAT THE HELL DOES THAT MEAN, AND WHAT RELEVANCE DOES IT HAVE??? Oh, and of course – “and what about the people in this country who don’t speak english, what about them?” WHO CARES!!! Always the negative, always the worst case. Always the littlest, the poorest, the most victimized. Gimme a break. Tony take my advice and never even try to run your own real business, your pessimism and negativity will wipe you out. I know you say you’re not a pessimist – excuse me – yes, you are.
I didn’t just give a “better” explanation of the roll up than Tino did – I GAVE THE CORRECT EXPLANATION. HE WAS INCORRECT. This is not a matter of opinion, it’s simple fact. When it was explained as a negative, you were perfectly willing to see it as a fault in the Burnlounge plan while neither of you even knew what it really was, but then you take my CORRECT explanation as a “different version” or whatever you said.
Tony, the glass is half FULL, the sky is NOT falling and the world is NOT ending. Those who work harder and smarter and innovate more deserve more. Welcome to America…
February 8th, 2007 at 12:42 am
By the way, gimme a break with your Fortune 500 comment. The #500 company had 2006 Revenues of $3.9 BILLION! So what, the companies that came in less than that are what, failures?
I looked up several of the bigger named MLM companies and their annual revenues ranged from $500 Million to $1.6 Billion. I had them all listed out here and then this damn thing glitched when I hit Submit and the message was erased. And I don’t feel like listing them again. So I guess if a company only does say $800 Million per year it doesn’t cut it in your book, huh?
Just ridiculous.
February 8th, 2007 at 8:44 am
Barry:
Okay, so your explanation is technically correct. That gives me little comfort in the overall scheme of things.
Let me break it down for you. I’ve run a company that I sold for $3 Million in 2000. I’m VP of Music at Entertainment Media Works. We currently have a valuation in the tens of millions and are creating a new marketplace at the intersection of fashion and music. I got to NYU two nights a week and am now a junior with a 3.59 GPA.
If I’m so pessimistic, where’s all that success come from? Me walking around telling everyone the sky is falling?
C’mon, Barry. Just because I’m cutting your business model to